S2 #6 'Changing the Code of Capitalism', with Will Zhao
Season 2 Episode 6
[00:00:00] James Gill:
[00:00:53] Hi there. Welcome to another episode of the EcoSend Podcast. The EcoSend podcast is a regular show that's anywhere between 20 or 30 minutes where we're hopefully gonna be introducing you to new and amazing people to hopefully inspire you to be a more climate conscious individual and business.
[00:01:12] The show is available on all major podcast platforms and I'm thrilled this week to be joined by, by Will. Will is a product lead at Net Purpose. It's a sustainability focused FinTech company based here in London. Prior to joining Net Purpose, Will worked in the political advocacy space in Washington, DC and Boston, lobbying for environmental policies in the us.
[00:01:37] In his spare time Will is an avid music lover I'm told, and a basketball fan and, who doesn't, enjoys a cheeky point with his mates. So I'm thrilled to have you on the show. Will, how you doing today?
[00:01:49] Will Zhao: Yeah. Good. I'm doing very well. Thanks for having me, James. It's a pleasure.
[00:01:53] James Gill: Awesome, awesome. So Will just had a little bit about you, but why don't you, in your own words, tell us all what you're up to. Who is Will, who are we speaking with today?
[00:02:03] Will Zhao: Yeah, certainly. So, in the sustainability space, I work for a company called Net Purpose. It's a sustainability data provider in the financial industry. We provide various environmental and social related related data to sustainability minded investors to help them better understand the positive and negative impacts of their investment activities.
[00:02:27] Some of the data we provide, such as CO2 emissions of portfolio companies, the gender pay gap within the specific organizations that are investing in and you know, water used percentage of waste recycled and et cetera, et cetera. So by doing all of this, we hope to really transform the code of capitalism, which sounds like a big dream, but we think by introducing this Sustainability thinking into investment processing, investment decision making; to make the investors more aware of the externalities; the consequences of their investments. We can shape a more sustainable and equitable future. At the company I'm in charge of a suite of regulation related products that help our clients comply with the various and new EU, UK sustainable finance disclosure regulations. These regulations require the asset managers to report, okay, 'X percentage of your portfolio is invested in sustainable activities'.
[00:03:26] These activities include things such as electricity generation from solar power, from wind power, as well as some of the more Biodiversity related waste of recycling related or even just, you know, building energy efficiency improvement and such as that. In the EU they have a regulation called the EU Taxonomy, which is a list of scientifically proven sustainable activities that we can do to combat climate change, to mitigate climate change, and to adapt to it.
[00:03:53] So that's what our products do, and we hope to provide an accessible overview of the sustainable performance of these portfolios. So our clients won't have to comb through Excel sheets and Excel sheets of data, rather just with a very simplistic view of, 'Hey, this is how you perform. Here is the benchmark and how they perform, and here are your shortcomings, here are your strengths'.
[00:04:17] And so again, in an effort to help them and encourage them to improve the sustainability performance of their investments,
[00:04:24] James Gill: I see that, that's actually fascinating. Well, first of all, it's awesome hearing it from yourself about how you fit into this world. I'm sure a lot of people listening may be very distant from the world of asset management and you know, I know myself, I barely understand what some of these terms mean, but it I think one of the previous guests we had on the show was, was referencing how important it is.
[00:04:47] People think about power stations with you know, pollution coming out of them and they think, well, I guess people naturally think of those places where 'get rid of them and things will be greener'. But I think people will overlook these industries like finance, where actually it's funding and fueling those industries.
[00:05:09] I think just to clarify then, so for your business, you sit between... You are providing data, you are going out there and helping to understand this data for individual companies essentially, and then bringing that to the people that make the investment decisions so they can see, 'Oh, I'm investing too much in businesses that are polluting and not enough in businesses that are driving innovation for more climate conscious activities.'
[00:05:36] Is that right?
[00:05:38] Will Zhao: Yeah, precisely. So If we think about a company, right, as a full circle, a part of it is that one half of the circle are the things that go into the production of what have you, right? If we take Nike, for example, right? Or Tesla for example. You know, the steel, the silicons, the rubber, the glass, the plastic and all that.
[00:06:01] These are one half of. Their value chain, right? In term that that's the input that Tesla requires to produce what their products are, which are electric vehicles, right? So obviously when you produce these electric vehicles, it's a lot of carbon emissions, right? To source the steel, to manufacture, to assemble and et cetera.
[00:06:20] And then, but on the other end of the equation is, 'Hey, you know, electric vehicles are much cleaner than your traditional petro vehicles, right?' So, To understand the company fully , to understand the full circle, so to speak, you kind of have to look at both ends. So we do provide data on both ends of the special group.
[00:06:41] Obviously Tesla may not be the best example in terms of a sustainable company given Elon's antics,
[00:06:50] James Gill: We won't go down the Elon route, but yeah, there's a whole podcast in that, I'm sure.
[00:06:55] Will Zhao: Right, exactly. But the moral of the story is, you know for a long time I think investors want to understand the externalities of their companies, both on the on the supply side as well as on the operational side.
[00:07:11] But this data has not been, systematically collected for a variety of reasons. There hasn't been a large market for this, so there wasn't a lot of investments into companies that can't that to do this. But now people are more aware there's a higher demand for the sustainability data, ESG data, and we're able to hopefully shed some light on the non-financial performance, right?
[00:07:34] The environmental performance, the social performance of these companies that a lot of asset managers are investing in across the world.
[00:07:42] James Gill: Got it. Got it. I know we might talk about where that demand is coming from in a bit, but I think before we jump into that, I feel like I'm skipping past a key part of this, Will, which is why do you care about this? What got you into this world? How have you ended up doing this?
[00:07:58] It's always great to hear about the backstory.
[00:08:00] Will Zhao: Yeah, I mean, you know, of course everybody should care about Mother Earth, right?
[00:08:03] James Gill: That's true. That is very true. Yeah.
[00:08:07] Will Zhao: Yeah. But, but I think for me personally, I grew up in China in a, you know, small quote unquote small town of 10 million people in southwest China called Chengdu. And you may not, you may not have heard the name, but you've certainly seen the pictures.
[00:08:22] It's one of those more notorious fog cities where you can't really see past, you know, a quarter a mile in front of you. So, environmental issues have been quite literally on the nose and in my face just growing up. And obviously as a kid, sometimes you don't realize how strange that is. .
[00:08:42] But you know, once you step out of the city and you see, 'Oh wow, I, I can actually see really far, oh, that's what it's supposed to be, right?' And you really start thinking about these things.
[00:08:52] James Gill: I remember when Beijing had the Olympics and that, that for me was the one time early on that I remember like I thought it was just fog, you know, in the UK fog, but, it's not fog, it's actually... What is that? That's like pollution of some various industries in the area that, which I think sometimes is hard to get one's head around that that's like caused by humans doing stuff, not the natural weather.
[00:09:22] Will Zhao: Yeah. I mean, these places didn't always used to be like that. Right? Even London Fog, I mean, London's one of the first industrialized cities in the history of mankind.
[00:09:31] And there is certainly the correlation between, you know, the industrialization of England and the environmental reality that came about in London.
[00:09:41] The fact that you wouldn't just jump into The Thames and go for a swim, would you?
[00:09:44] James Gill: Yeah! I still wouldn't do that, but yeah, even less so back then, I think!
[00:09:48] Will Zhao: Right, exactly. Even after decades of cleaning up. And these are, you know, manmade situations and scenarios. Right. In Beijing, my hometown, these are all, you know, examples of cities that have been damaged. And really, people's lives have been significantly negatively affected by our own behavior, right?
[00:10:09] By our own pursuit of more products, more production, more consumption, more of this, more and more and more, right, because we haven't been thinking about sustainability for the last 180 years since the industrial Revolution.
[00:10:25] James Gill: It's also I mean there's also an interesting thing there with China itself, where it's almost like in the UK we're like, 'Oh, well we've, we've cleaned up our act and, you know, we're all happy with our emissions'. Well, you know, on this path to being better. But if anything, we just push the problem out of the way, so we can't even see it. And that's, maybe that's worse because now we're not directly affected by it. And those, those problems are probably greater than they've ever been.
[00:10:51] Will Zhao: Yeah, yeah. I think the globalization of the, well international economy, international trade has facilitated the globalization of pollution. The offshoring of production facilities from developed economies in Western Europe and North America to, you know, your quote unquote... you know where all your clothes are manufactured from, right?
[00:11:12] So it used to be China. It used to be japan, perhaps right now it's a lot of Vietnam, Bangladesh, and India. And naturally the pollution has shifted towards these emerging markets, emerging marketing economies. And if you look at, you know, obviously everybody knows China is the world's largest CO2 emitters on the annual basis, right?
[00:11:34] For probably the last decade or so. However, if you look at the cumulative CO2 emissions globally from each country, the United States still remains the largest single emitter in the history of mankind, right? And. That's not to say, oh, we should only look at a cumulative emission versus annualized emission.
[00:11:54] I think both are important metrics to evaluate and look at. But, you know, if you think about climate change, how climate change works; climate change doesn't reset every year, right? The CO2 in our atmosphere, it doesn't reset. It's because of decades and centuries of human activity that has built up all of these CO2 that's, you know, up there in, in the atmosphere. So , it's important for developed economies as well for emerging market economies, to reduce their reliance on fossil fuel, to reduce their CO2 emissions. But also I think there is a place for those of us sitting in the Western countries to do some self-reflection, right? It's the fact that, 'Hey, we are the end consumers of these products that are causing emissions, right?' We are the ones buying iPhones every two, three years. We are the ones driving all the time. We are the ones buying new MacBooks. And all of these are associated with a lot of carbon emissions. And if we look at the per capita emissions; Europe, Canada, the United States, far outpaces of the per capita emissions rate of China, India, some of the heavier polluters.
[00:13:03] James Gill: Yeah. No, absolutely when you look at it on the global stage, the direct connection between what's happening with the climate and industry and, you know, the, this sort of desire to, to make change and, and sort things out. But, but then how you do that on a global scale is so challenging when, we don't want to prevent other nations and regions from industrializing and getting to a better state.
[00:13:35] From all angles and, and so how you do that without the compromise on climate is one of the biggest challenges I guess we face really. It's incredible how it interconnects. And I guess Finance plays a huge part of this.
[00:13:50] Will Zhao: Yeah, yeah, definitely.
[00:13:52] James Gill: Because where the money flows is where the industry is and the innovation happens and I guess it's possibly the cause and solution to many of these problems.
[00:14:02] Will Zhao: Yeah, I, I think two points real quick. I think the first thing is that for the longest time we have to believe that, okay, in order to achieve economic growth, we need to make necessary sacrifices, right? Sometimes these are human rights, child labor, and sometimes it's environmental concerns, right?
[00:14:21] But I do believe, especially given the technologies that are available to us now that is a bit of a false equivalency in that you have to sacrifice the environment. You have to pollute. For your industry to grow for a, you know, poorer country, to grow wealthier, to grow richer. There is this concept in international development called 'leapfrogging', right?
[00:14:43] That is saying, in the year 2023, and let's say I'm starting from scratch, I am a random country. I have no industry. Completely agrarian, and I want to build up my industry, right? So what do I need to build up my industry? I need energy sources, right? So 80 years ago, the natural answer to my demand for energy is to build up coal power plants, maybe not even natural gas, right?
[00:15:07] A lot of oil, right? I need all of these to burn, to burn a lot of, to emit a lot of co2. And so I can power my industry, however, today, this is no longer the case, right? Technology in renewable energy has advanced so much. Solar is one of the cheapest sources of electricity.
[00:15:24] Obviously solar has its own problems as well, right? In terms of intermittency, but solar, wind, even nuclear power, right? Nuclear power is also basically completely carbon free right? Has very low lifecycle carbon emissions rate even lower than that of solar and wind power. And these are great sources of energy that we can tap into that do not actively contribute to huge amounts of CO2 emissions globally. Right. So, so that is the concept of leapfrogging is instead of going from, you know, agrarian society, coal, gas, and then to something, right. Why don't we just skip over?
[00:16:00] James Gill: You don't copy the London playbook from the Victorian era; don't have to do all that bit necessarily.
[00:16:07] Will Zhao: Yeah. And you know, that applies to other aspects of industrialization as well, right?
[00:16:11] How you design a city that is more friendly to public transit, instead of looking at what the US did, right; designing cities that are basically heavily reliant on cars. Can we design a city that you don't need cars? We could just cycle and train and you know, other means of public transit.
[00:16:29] Right. You know, if you look at Barcelona is a great example of urbanizing. Urbanizing in a way that's sustainable. Creating cycling lanes, blocking off parts of the city that cars cannot travel to. Right. So, you know, I think the world of the story is we have a lot of experiences, right. Both good and bad.
[00:16:47] And you know, now for developing economies is taking out the good pieces. And like you were saying earlier; finance flow plays a really big part into all of this. Certainly, and it's not just where, right? It's not that, you know, oh, is, are we going to invest in Kenya or in South Africa, in Zimbabwe or in Vietnam, right?
[00:17:09] But it's also what we decide to invest in, right? Should we support another coal power plant that's going to be there emitting CO2 for another 80 years when we can't invest in. solar farm, right? I think in 2012 or 2011, Egypt decided to invest in what would've become the largest single largest coal power plant Right.
[00:17:33] On the continent of Africa. But then, the public pressure and civil resistance; environmental groups form together and say, no, no, no, no, no, we can't be doing this because it's not just a one time thing, right? This thing is going to be there for almost a century. Once you invest billions of dollars, you want to see return on your money, right?
[00:17:53] That's natural. So why don't we invest in something that's going to be cleaner and more sustainable? So they actually were able to scrap the whole power plant altogether. Right. And then moved on, I believe to hydro instead. So you know, with every single decision of where to invest, what to invest, right?
[00:18:13] And then we really do need to consider, not just the immediate effects, right? You know, when you make an investment in finance, you don't just think about how much can I get back in a year. Some of these projects, they have 30 year payback periods. Like you think about a mortgage, right?
[00:18:28] When the bank loands you money, they don't expect you to give the money back to them today, It's over 30 years. And this is the same thing with investments, right? So over 30 years, 80 years, and now we have to think about over 30 years, 80 years, what is the environmental consequence of each of our decisions.
[00:18:46] James Gill: Yeah. I'm fascinated by that because I guess you know the world of capital and money; people often have the one priority. Which is, I lend you some money, I want more money back please, than anything else I don't really care about.
[00:19:02] Okay, you've got your money back, but what are the other things that one cares about with where their money's being invested? Like it'd be great to hear more about that because, you know, I'm sure many people hypothetically agree on this, but in practice, it's a very different world, I guess.
[00:19:20] Will Zhao: Yeah, yeah, definitely. I think, well, you know, we start with traditional finance, right? There is this thing called fiduciary duty, which well, some interpret a different way, but, you know, let's say you let me manage your money, James, right? My only duty, my one and only duty is to make sure that you not only see your money back, but I try my best to make you as much money as possible.
[00:19:43] Right. And for a long time, and this is the debate that's ongoing in the United States right now, is because of this fiduciary duty, therefore I cannot consider anything else, any other factor that is, you know, environmental, that is social . My sole focus has to be money, right? Is the financial return.
[00:20:04] But what the sustainable finance field is saying is, 'Hey, look, we live in the world where drought, floods, wildfires snow, like hurricanes, whatever, right?' All of these; rising sea level, these are all going to affect not just our cities and people, but also your investments, right?
[00:20:26] If you invest in something that's going to go underwater, if you invest in something hoping that it'll pay you back in 30 years, but it goes underwater in 15, that's not exactly a good investment, is it?
[00:20:38] So, you know, maybe in the last 20, 30 years, people have really started to consider some of these environmental risks.
[00:20:46] And that is, I think the very beginning of sustainable investments, right? It's not necessarily say, 'Hey, we wanna do something good for the world', but rather as the world continues to evolve, should we continue to make investments that are likely to be harmed by the environmental disasters and et cetera, et cetera.
[00:21:04] You know that is, you know what is usually called the 'ESG Investing' is considering the environmental, social, and governance risks. Right? And since then, the field has obviously evolved; it's actively looking for things that are sustainable, that are more future-proof, right?
[00:21:19] If I as an investor believe in the theory that by 2050 most cars on the road will be electric, because that is where government regulations are pushing. That's where consumer preferences are going, and that is also just good for the planet for a variety of reasons. Then should I still be investing in petro cars?
[00:21:43] Then you want to be future facing in terms of investment, right? Investment always has to be future facing. You can look at all the old data as much as you want, but if you look at, you know, if you take the tech industry, for example, right? Why did the tech industry make so many people so much money in the nineties, in the early two thousands, even until this day, because they're future facing, right?
[00:22:05] Because people in the 1990s believed in the future performance of Amazon, who was a company that was actively bleeding money every single year, right? Same thing with Tesla. It's, you know, the valuation is so high compared to their actual output, but because people believe in the future of that company.
[00:22:24] So naturally, you know what is going to be in the future, right? Some people just think, 'Okay, yeah, obviously the more traditional finance school of thinking would be, okay, where is consumer demand, consumer reson response, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah'. Right? Or you can think about the broader macroeconomic environment, the regulatory environment that may exist in 2035 and 2050 as the general population becomes more environmentally aware.. So, and that is kind of the objective and you know, of sustainable invest. And again, that doesn't necessarily mean you are sacrificing your future earnings. Just because you're thinking about the environment, which is a thing we should think about. Because we had 40 degree days in London last year. Right. And now, you know, some people take it even a step further, right, and do impact investing. And these are the guys that say, forget your single bottom line of money, money, money. We care about it. But we also introduce another bottom thinking about impact, right?
[00:23:26] Not only do we want to consider you know, environmental aspects of these companies, we're actively looking for companies that are contributing to positive impact. And these are called impact investors, or double bottom line investors. They have two bottom lines, you know, they care about the planet.
[00:23:43] And these are the guys that will actively invest in, you know only solar power, only gender ability, finance only, you know, community driven, community inclusion projects. Right? Yeah. And sometimes these are at the cost of certain capital returns. Let's say a traditional finance asset manager can return you 10% every year.
[00:24:05] And maybe these funds, not all of them. Some of them actually will outperform the general market. But some of these, you know, they only, they say, 'Hey, look, you could have gotten ten from this guy, , we'll promise you seven, but you're also contributing to all of these many good things in the world.'
[00:24:21] And I think there has been a growing appetite from everyday Joe's. Every Joe's like you and myself to say, 'Hey, you know what, like that 3%, it's fine; as long as we're not doing something really bad for the world'. And you know, that's the same thing as, you know, paying a little bit more money for recycled products, paying a little bit more money for sustainably produced clothing and, you know, that kind of ecosystem, right? Maybe not necessarily paying more money, but just, 'Hey, I want this product that's actually actively environmentally friendly rather than any old email product.'
[00:24:55] James Gill: Yeah, people putting their money where that, where their mouth is. Yeah. So I want to dig in more of that, but I know I've got to keep it to time ,Will and you know I guess, I mean I feel very reassured though by a lot of what you were saying there. Because I guess there's definitely more and more people wanting to do the right thing, but then there's also a lot of people, whether or not they necessarily want to do the right thing, that financially the right thing is actually to go with where, where the future is. And the future is clearly to be more focused on sustainability, to be more conscious of what world we are building for ourselves. So I feel overall very reassured by what you're saying now, right?
[00:25:39] I mean, one of the final points that I know we normally talk to people about, on the podcast and we've talked about it a little bit there, but what do you see as the future for the world of finance and, and where the world of finance and sustainability meet? I am keen to get your thoughts. What do we got? What do we got?
[00:25:55] Will Zhao: Right, so in the last, I think three, four years, right? The money that's been raised to invest sustainability, to invest, you know, explicitly for impact has nearly quadrupled from I believe 90 billion across the globe to about close to 300 billion these days, right?
[00:26:14] So there is a exponential growth of how much money invested is actually considering environmental factors, social factors, and a lot of these money come from, you know, your pension funds, right? Your know, our everyday investment accounts, your RothIRA in the US ,your trading accounts , right?
[00:26:35] So that's good. That's all good and well, right? So about 300 billion globally. Would you like to take a guess how much money was used to finance fossil fuel in last year alone?
[00:26:48] James Gill: This is the bad news bit, I guess.
[00:26:50] Will Zhao: This is a bad news.
[00:26:52] James Gill: More than 300 bill.
[00:26:55] Will Zhao: More than doubled, right. Last year alone, the major banks of the world invested about 680 billion in the fossil fuel sectors. That's down from 800 billion from the year prior, right?
[00:27:09] James Gill: Okay. That's good news. Yeah, I'll latch onto that.
[00:27:13] Will Zhao: Yeah. Yeah, right. So, and you know, I have to credit Rainforest Action Network. They release an annual report on banking on climate change, which I recommend everybody to take a look. And these are real banks, right? These are the banks that we save our monies in. Your city, JP Morgan Chase HSBC, Barclays, Deutsche, all of these banks, right?
[00:27:34] And what they're doing is actively taking the money that you're depositing, right, that you are saving with them, and turn around, put it into fossil fuel.
[00:27:45] And it's, it's pretty, you know, dare I say, a bad thing to do, especially for those who are environmentally conscious but didn't realize that their banks are doing these things.
[00:27:56] James Gill: Yeah. The vast majority of people I am convinced do not even have any, any idea what goes on, like, you know, all of the Sickening ab you see on TV of these banks being by your side and doing the best they can for you and all while putting, I, I don't even wanna say how many hundreds of billions it was, into fossil fuels.
[00:28:21] Will Zhao: Yeah. It's 5 trillion, right In the last six years. Trillion has I, I think 16 zeros following the five. 16. That's a lot of zeros.
[00:28:32] James Gill: a lot of zeros. That's longer than my phone number. Yeah.
[00:28:34] Will Zhao: Yeah. Right. Exactly. And it shouldn't be like that. So I think, you know, in terms of looking at the future, what I believe there are two major factors I think that's driving.
[00:28:44] But, they're really just one factor. One is the regulatory pressure that's coming down from our regulators and whether it's the UK FCA, the Financial Conduct authority, or the EU. And these regulators are starting to force asset managers and companies to start disclosing their sustainability performance, right?
[00:29:03] So next time you know, when you're looking to buy an ETF or looking to buy into a fund, you can see, okay, this guy is a lot more sustainable than the other fund. And then you can compare the financial performance and, so maybe every one of us can become a more conscious and, you know, quote unquote double bottom line investor, right?
[00:29:23] To put our money where our mouth is. But what that does also is to force these banks to these other asset managers to be honest about what their sustainable sustainability objective, or lack thereof is.
[00:29:39] If youre a bank, you should be aware that, your money is gonna go into fossil fuel, right?
[00:29:44] Whereas, you know, here's another bank that doesn't put their money into fossil fuel. Right? But all of that comes down to one thing. It's consumer preference. It is what you and I, you know, I don't have that much money, but collectively, there's a lot we can do in terms of choosing a pension scheme that is sustainable.
[00:30:03] That considers sustainability factors .And the pension funds remain the world's largest asset owners, right? We're talking again, trillions and trillions of dollars or pounds and what have you, right? Picking the bank. That does work. Banking, your company's banking, right? Hey, oh, HSSBC is really bad. Maybe I should think about a more sustainable bank, right?
[00:30:24] Triodos, based in the Netherlands is a sustainable bank, you know? And also just making the right investment decisions yourself to look to as the data becomes more available to consider. 'Hey, All right. Microsoft is emitting a lot of CO2 every year compared to, I don't know, one of its competitors. Do I really want to be a share shareholder of Microsoft, given everything they do?' and also regulators respond to political pressure. Political pressure come from every average Joe. Good thing we live in democracy right.? You know last week's council election, Green Party won another 200 seats.
[00:31:05] We're seeing a growing popularity of the green movement; of the sustainable movements. And as you, you know, and, and I'm sure as you've seen in EcoSend as well, more and more people are consciously making that choice, but we need to spread the word. We are believers. I'm preaching to the choir right now, but we need to spread a word to our, I don't know, uncles, aunts, that don't believe in these things.
[00:31:30] James Gill: Absolutely Will. Yeah, I agree. And I, I think, gosh, you've shared some eye-opening and arguably, terrifying numbers there, but I think it's fantastic to actually be wrapping up on I think an empowering positive note. That each of us, okay, maybe we're preaching to the choir, but each of us can make those decisions and every single day you know, by voting with your own feet, and your own wallet. And, you know, more and more people are doing that and it does add up, which I think is a very positive note to be ending on.
[00:32:06] I am so appreciative Will of you joining me on the show, I feel like this could be a triple decker, you know, multiple hour episode. I'm sure you've got better things to do than talk to me though. So I would like to let you get on with making the world of finance a little bit of a better place. And so thank you so much for joining me on the show.
[00:32:27] If anyone
[00:32:28] Will Zhao: wants...
[00:32:28] Thanks for having me.
[00:32:29] James Gill: ... to connect with you, was it LinkedIn? They can find you ,Will?
[00:32:32] Will Zhao: Yeah, yeah. LinkedIn if you should Will Zhao, you should see me somewhere out
[00:32:37] James Gill: We'll link that in the show notes and yeah, thank you again, Will; it's been an absolute pleasure having you.
[00:32:42] Will Zhao: All right. Thank you James. Have a good one.
[00:32:44] James Gill: Thank you. Thank you Will. And if you'd like to join us for future episodes or you'd like to make sure Will's message gets to more people, do tell others about the show.
[00:32:54] And please, please leave a review of the podcast if you've enjoyed it. Whatever platform you're listening on, it helps get more and more people to join and learn more. So thank you again for listening, and we'll catch you next time.