The EcoSend Podcast

Season 3 Epsiode 10
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[00:00:00]

[00:00:53] James Gill: Hi there. Welcome to another episode of The EcoSend Podcast. I'm your host, James Gill, and I'm thrilled to introduce another show this week. This Is one of our final episodes of the season, season three, and what a season it's been. I'm thrilled today to be joined by Francois Burra, who is working in the world of digital sustainability, which is a topic I know we've been chatting about quite a lot. Now, Francois is a product lead and UX consultant, a mentor and a speaker with 12 years of experience working with startups and agencies in Canada and the US. He's based in Montreal, and after taking almost a full year off and following climate courses, Francois pivoted his career to fight the climate crisis and is now helping digital companies and product teams take advantage of the net zero opportunity and to reduce their digital emissions. Francois, it is such an honor to be chatting with you today. This is a hugely important topic for us at EcoSend and for many of our listeners. So. Can't wait to unpack it with you. How are, how you doing today?

[00:02:01] Track 1: I'm doing great. Thank you so much for an invitation for speaking today with you and and hopefully we're gonna have fun today.

[00:02:08] Yeah, absolutely Francois. Yeah, it's, it's great to be chatting. So

[00:02:12] So, so Francois, maybe in your own words, like what are you up to and, and tell me

[00:02:17] Tell me more about that, because I guess for many people, hopefully many people.

[00:02:21] to the podcast are gonna be aware of Of digital sustainability and digital emissions.

[00:02:27] But I would also wager that probably quite a few people not aware of this. They think of the car they drive or other industries as being polluting, but digital is polluting too. Tell tell us all about this.

[00:02:40] Yeah, basically like in 2021 a, a report came out saying that the digital, digital emissions repre represented about 3.8% of all greenhouse gases emission globally.

[00:02:53] James Gill: lot, isn't it!

[00:02:55] Track 1: So that, that's quite a lot. It's kind of if to, to compare it with other industries. It's, it's, it's almost twice the equivalent of the aviation industry.

[00:03:03] Which we in, in our mind is like wedge way more being more discussed and you know, is polarizing more the society, but it's the equivalent as well. Another benchmark would be the, the road freight. Road transportation is about the same as the, as the digital emission emissions coming from digital or internet overall.

[00:03:24] It's projected in 2040. To be, to go from like this, let's say between three, three to 5% to 14% in 2040. And, and most of this growth is due to you know, the adoption of AI and the big you know, boom, that AI is, is is, getting at the moment for, you know, very good reasons. Also some other that, we can dive into more after, ​less good, let's say, but but yeah, so it's a big, big, big topic and, and when we think about digital, we think about the cloud. So, you know, it's all up in the air, but I mean, I mean, it's actually up in the air, like if we think about, you know, carbon emissions or greenhouse gases, but it's, it has a real physical material impact and it's kind of divided in two, like, maybe like 60% or 57%.

[00:04:14] To be more specific is about everything that relates to the production, the manufacturing, or everything that powers. Internet, so like the manufacturing of our devices, the infrastructure. So think about submarine cables, but also the data centers that, you know, is usually the one thing that we think about the most.

[00:04:31] So all those physical assets or devices are about 57%. And the rest, which is like related to the, our usage operation, like charging our computer, powering our data centers and so on, account for about 50 43%. So that's kind of very material impact that we can that we need to, that we need to approach and understand to, to really start thinking about how we can, how our job and our life impact you know, having impact the society.

[00:05:02] James Gill: That is, that is incredible to hear. Thank you for the explainer there, Francois. And I guess just to like reemphasize that, because I think some people tuning here might be like wait what say that again. So, Digital industry is, is more polluting than the aviation industry. And when you factor in the usage, the devices and everything, that is, that is incredible, isn't it?

[00:05:26] Track 1: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And the manufacturing is usually something we, we don't really account for. But you know, like everything that, that comes with the manufacturing, you know, like mining, extracting, displacing communities, like contaminating, contaminating water and so on, you know it's a, it's a big chunk of our emissions.

[00:05:44] So we really have to be mindful about, you know, not trying to ditch the newest is the best, you know approach because we, we, we cannot just buy, buy, buy, and thinking about the implication of what, what comes with like, you know producing, manufacturing, those devices, you know, the latest iPhone, the latest computer we, we really have to be mindful about extending their lifespan as much as as possible as individual, but also as companies.

[00:06:10] James Gill: Yeah, abso absolutely. And it, it is just incredible to think about it when we You know, many of us working in a remote environment or working from home and, you know, we sort of think about maybe the, the travel component or working in a big office building that's clearly had a lot of energy going into it to build it and to run it. But actually they're very computer we're sitting at and they're very, internet services we are using are also a massive factor to think about, about our own carbon footprints and,

[00:06:44] Track 1: Yeah, We are carrying our emissions, you know, from, we displaying, displacing them from the workplace to our home. And like, there's plus and minus. Like there you, you, you reduce some emissions because you don't necessarily you know, travel or like use your car to go to work or public transportation, but there's other emissions that you can add up.

[00:07:02] So I, I think there were studies on the topic as well. I, I don't recall exactly the, the the insights or the outcomes of like the comparison between the working remote or at the office. But there's always emissions. It's a matter of like understanding what we can do and, and where emissions come from in order to be able to to reduce it.

[00:07:21] James Gill: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, thank you already for that incredibly helpful overview because I think for many people that's, that's gonna be it already closing their laptop or turning off their, their phone and going to think about things a bit. But in terms of you then, Francois, so you're clearly passionate about this.

[00:07:40] What, what do you, what do you do at the moment to help people with this whole, whole issue then?

[00:07:47] Track 1: Yeah, so basically like I'm just going to give you a bit of a backstory, but I was working for, you know, for Digital Studios and agencies and startup and, and years ago after one of the startup I was working with got acquired for 64 million, I decided to take a year off and kind of pause my career and and think about, you know, what was important for me to accomplish in this life, or what impact I wanted to have. Even if, if it's just, you know, I'm not gonna change the world by myself, but is, you know, trying to work according to my values. And I started to onboard to, to train on, on the climate crisis and try to understand a bit more the topic and, and see where I could have an impact.

[00:08:24] And I ended up, because I was working as a UX designer and product manager. In my past experiences because I cared about climate change, I just thought about how could I combine the two and try to raise awareness about this topic to my peers. You know, my colleague, former colleagues. And so that's how, how I came up to, and it didn't happen overnight, right?

[00:08:46] It was like over a few months or even a few years to kind of like ended up at that very simple conclusion. But then I decided to help organization that could be, you know you know, startup big companies or governments to reduce their digital emissions. And I do it in three ways. I train teams and I teach them about sustainable digital practices.

[00:09:07] So they can reduce their emissions. I measure the digital footprints of a digital product and, and, and services to help company to understand where the emissions come from the most and where they can have more impact addressing them. And lastly, I build low carbon experiences. So think about, you know, the experience, the digital experience that, that consumed the least amount of CO two.

[00:09:31] James Gill: Right.

[00:09:32] Track 1: So that's what kind of what I do as a, as a consultant and I partner with amazing organization, that that helps me to realize what I just what I just explained.

[00:09:41] James Gill: That's amazing. That makes a lot of sense. So, yeah, it's sort of something you've, you've got the skills from your previous experience to, to have this impact and, and this passion and drive to make some impact is, it is also exciting and I think about this a lot with what we're doing with, with EcoSend. Where like, you as an individual or a, you know, a team can have such an outsized impact when you change behavior at, at a wider scale and, and you know, when you can impact one website or one email or one experience of some sort, then multiply that by how many people visit it or read it or experience it on a daily basis.

[00:10:27] And it's incredible how much impact you can have if you make just so even a handful of small changes. That's so cool.

[00:10:34] Track 1: Absolutely. And, and just to piggyback on that part of the training that we gave with actually a British organization called Product for Net Zero. One of our key point and message is that the biggest impact we can have in our life is through our work, right? I mean, I am vegan, for instance. But being vegan in my own little corner, you know, would not have a major impact. You know, so like like in order to amplify and multiply my impact, I think it has to, it has to be through my throughout work basically. Because as you said, like if you, if you work for a company that have a million of visitors, you know, changing something in the way you build your product or develop it could have a tremendous impact.

[00:11:17] So that's, that's way bigger than, than everything that you can do in your personal life. And it's not just a either or, like, ideally you do both, right? But it's just a, a matter of like having, having an order of magnitude in, in order in term of the impact you can have. And work is definitely a place where there's tons of opportunities to have an impact, but also that can help your business, you know.

[00:11:41] James Gill: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, that's a really good point too as well, that often these changes, they're not at the sacrifice of business success. They're, they're actually helping with it too, which is, which is pretty cool. And that maybe is a good segue onto you are working on right now, which is, I know a big project of yours that you've been putting a heck of a lot of energy and effort into Francois.

[00:12:07] So you are, you are working on a, a white paper of some sort is my understanding. So it'd be great to hear a bit more about this. Becuase I, well I'm relatively yeah, I have, I treat me like I know nothing about it because I barely do know anything about it. So I'm, I'm excited to hear more.

[00:12:23] Track 1: Yeah, so basically like all came up with with a discussion I had with a friend of mine and I came up strong in a discussion being like, as a product, for the context, there's tons of resources, like amazing resources as an engineer to, to apply sustainable practices or climate best practices.

[00:12:41] Same for designers, UI designers, UX designers. There's tons of like communities and, and best practices for that. But when it comes to product managers, there's a, there's nothing or, or not a lot to be more fair.

[00:12:53] I felt as a product manager, a bit frustrated that I, I knew my peers and I, and part of my, the training programs that I followed as well, when I was doing my, my transition to work on the climate crisis.

[00:13:05] There, there were a lot of them that were product managers, product leads, senior pm and so on and so forth. But there were no tailored, you know playbook for them to incorporate climate consideration into their job. And on top of it, product managers for, I, I don't know how familiar you are with it or how, whether your audience is familiar with the job, but basically like you're supposed to take the vision and, and materialize it into the execution.

[00:13:30] So really, really like, have a role of influence and like your translator. But so there's this vertical influence if we can say, but there's also, you, you collaborate with all stakeholders, all departments. So you have this kind of more horizontal influence. And because of that, I felt like this superpower that product manager have could really help, you know, to drive even more impact in, in the, in the company and, and, and affect the mission in a more system substantial way than maybe other jobs could, or equally as good.

[00:14:02] So I, I felt like we needed a playbook for that. And part of the discussion I was having is like, we need that I'm gonna work on it. And I was with my partner a collaborator Antione Cabo, who works with me on this project, and we were like, okay, let's do it. So that was like probably four months ago, six months ago.

[00:14:19] James Gill: Okay.

[00:14:20] Track 1: basically what it is to make it super simple I was giving you a bit of a backstory, but...

[00:14:24] James Gill: We wanna hear more. Yeah. Yeah!

[00:14:26] Track 1: Yeah. It's a playbook of 34 best practices. That helps product managers to be more climate conscious, to apply nature positive, best practices that, you know, not only reduce emissions, you know, CO2 greenhouse gases, but also are good for the biodiversity.

[00:14:44] And we wanted it in a way that it's super practical. You read it and you know exactly . What are the steps to apply each of those best practices? What are the pitfalls that we will warn you about? What are the benefits and, you know, the the tips that you can also leverage? And the goal is really for them to you know, read it. And put their Superman or superwoman cap on and just go back to the next day at their work and be able to apply some of them and gradually, because, you know, change would not happen overnight, but at least get an understanding of what they can do, be inspired and start to, to apply it within their job and, and yeah.

[00:15:24] So that's really what it is. And what I find fantastic is that there's some of those best practices that you can do on your own. Like you don't need the oversight of your boss, just, you know, exactly. What, what you do like, like not all the jobs need you to have approval for, like, for all the tasks that you do.

[00:15:39] All the projects you do needs, like all the approval from your, you know, managers. Like there's some, it's just best practices that help you in your job. So you just implement, implement them because they help you. So there's tons of those best practices that people just can implement it right away the next day.

[00:15:56] And some others that they would have to, you know, start like leveraging the, the influence and talk to other stakeholders and try to be convincing and so on and so forth. So there's a bit of those two type of practices that people can implement. And, And I, and I'm really excited to, to see it out.

[00:16:11] It is supposed to be released by November 20th. But I don't want to over commit to that date. If it's a week after, please don't be don't be too mad!

[00:16:19] James Gill: You and me. Just between us!

[00:16:20] Track 1: Exactly. It is just a friendly, private discussion. So yeah, I really, really excited to bring this impact. Hopefully it is gonna be useful.

[00:16:29] And and this is the first version, so I'm sure like, you know, there will be of room for improvement over the next few years and and, and months.

[00:16:36] James Gill: It's, it's, thank you for sharing that. It's, it's actually really fascinating to hear. Becuase this podcast, we've, we've spoken to a few people in, in the world of digital sustainability. And don't think so far really spoken to anyone from a, a product management background and perspective. We had had some really good conversations with Tom and Marketa from Whole Grain Digital, who are a digital agency. They work a lot on websites and, and e really planet friendly websites and thinking about a lot of the attributes there. Also with Tim Frick from MightyBytes, who was writing a lot of the sort of documentation around the best practices for building good websites from an environmental perspective. And

[00:17:26] I think there's, there's, it's just really exciting to see more and more people and more and more people really educating, inspiring others and, and raising awareness of this whole topic. And I think you are doing now with product management is really great because product managers do sit between many of those disciplines, as you were saying. You know, there's, they've got often got a seat at the more senior exec kind of table, they also influence everyone's building, and working with developers, designers...

[00:17:59] And so I, I think that impact of a product manager is actually, is so incredibly exciting and, and empowering because the product itself, but there's also the inspiration a product manager can give to so many other people in the organization. And each, if each of them are there, thinking about those same principles or making them spark ideas for how they can, can make things, you know, lighter, more efficient, more effective, more, more impactful with less resources.

[00:18:28] Like, I just think that's such a, yeah, such a, a powerful position and, and, of such great leverage.

[00:18:35] Track 1: Yeah. I, I couldn't say it better. , to be fair, it's exactly that. They have a great role of influence and and we need more PMs to champion their role in transitioning to to a society that, that is more sustainable, let's say. And and not only that, but the, the benefits for businesses or organization and their digital product or services is, is really great.

[00:18:59] You know, like it's the case study or the case for, for applying those, those best practices is really hyper compelling. You know, like you, you like by being more frugal by, by by being, being more mindful about how you use technology, like, you know, 3D animations and like a big heavy multimedia component or removing script or unused feeder features and so on and so forth you can drastically reduce your cost, you can improve your business performance because let's say if your product, you know it's gonna be lighter faster, so it would convert better for your user. And suddenly you have a better SEO. So, you know, like your, your revenue will increase and because you store less data and you have less feature and, and, and less, you know, unused, unused components of your product, you would also reduce your cloud bill.

[00:19:45] And your development will be streamlined because you would need less developer for the same amount of output of product built because it's less complex. There's less bugs and less QA to perform. So there, and, and you can differentiate, differentiate yourself, you know, not only from your competitors, like the same way as you do.

[00:20:03] If I were to draw parallel and maybe you're gonna tell me it's not exactly that, but you know, we have the MailChimp of this world, but now we have a new generation of MailChimp. Which is EcoSend that is kind of the sustainable version of it, you know, and suddenly like you can really gain some market traction because you're putting sustainable as the key focus, but also your employees probably would be happier because we know that new generation really cares about, you know, the climate crisis.

[00:20:29] They kind of were born unfortunately with this in anxiety. So they want their job to reflect their values and so your attraction of talent would be higher, but your retention of existing talent would be better. So there's tons of like product specific benefits, but also business opportunities that can really comes from all the best practices that, that, that goes with you know, being a climate conscious product manager or sustainable green product manager.

[00:20:58] So that's, that's really exciting. And sometime people will not care about climate. You know, like if you think about your chief financial officer, you know, maybe they just want to see the bottom line, you know, like how does it improve revenue? How does it be reduce cost? And maybe you can just start with that and you're gonna throw sustainable maybe at the last part of the discussion.

[00:21:20] Just as a side note, you know, which is also totally fine. You have to adapt and cater your message to who you're talking to. But I think the business case is super strong and I, I hope that within the next few years, and with more and more examples and case studies, we are gonna be able to have specific, you know, numbers to showcase being like, you can reduce your cloud cost by 20%.

[00:21:42] You can, you know, improve your margin by X. And, you know I think that would be that would make this argument, you know, even more impactful and, and, and harder to refuse, you know, or refuse to.

[00:21:52] James Gill: Yeah. I mean, Francois, you just listed off about a, a what felt like a hundred reasons why, why people should be doing, do, embracing these values and these practices. Why would you not do employ some of these practices in your own business and it's just such a great situation where it can be win, win, win on, on all sides and get

[00:22:15] other people to buy into, you know, I, I know it can be a difficult one at the end of the day when people, you know, a lot of people want to do the right thing on sustainability, but when it comes to, when push comes to shove, yeah. As you say, your CFO example or your Developer who wants to get the job done and get, get home or whatever. It's like these things slip down, but when you bring it up again as, as like, yeah, it's not just about, if it's not just sustainability, it's the other impacts of the business or to your, your daily life actually everyone's winning.

[00:22:51] Track 1: No. And, and, and just another side of the equation, like, you know, you can uplift people and inspire them with like, you know, benefits and opportunities and, and a positive outlook of like, the impact you can have. But also like, especially in Europe, because, you know, I'm based in, in Montreal and in Canada and the US I see that this, there's a lot of awareness to, to, to be done, you know, to really put this topic on the map.

[00:23:14] But in Europe I think probably the, this topic is like five years ahead. And there's even some you know, legal requirements, regulations like laws that are being implemented or like have been implemented for a few years already in the topic and EU regulations as well to measure your emit digital emissions and report on them and so on.

[00:23:35] So, like, there's also a risk factor that if you start, if you don't start looking into it maybe like GDPR, you know, a few years back. Suddenly, like it came from Europe and like everyone has to, you know be in compliance with it. Maybe in, in five years or hopefully less companies of all size would have to report in some ways their digital emission in full and footprints. And, and for me that would be great. But anyway, it's always like the, the carrot and the stick, right? Like better to, to uplift with the opportunities than make them feel like they're on the wrong, wrong side of the argument. But there's like those two sides that are, you know being more that are progressing well in the right direction.

[00:24:15] It's just a matter of time before it reach North America. And and it become more widely adopted across the, the world.

[00:24:22] James Gill: Yeah. Absolutely. That is, I felt already incredibly inspired by the chat today, Francois. The, the, the final section though, I know that you wanted to talk about was in very practical terms, and, and without stealing too much from your white paper, can product managers be doing make some of these changes? And that's the delicate one to not give all of your secrets away, but any, any places you would start, if you are talking to a product manager about, you know, when they come into the office tomorrow, what's, what's gonna be on their agenda? What could they be doing to make some quick wins?

[00:24:59] Track 1: Yeah. Well, first and foremost, like the, there's nothing really to steal in the sense that the white paper or the playbook will be available for free, so it is just a matter of time before people can actually read, read through it all. But, but yeah, I think like in no specific order, but like for sure, like moving to a, a sustainable hosting provider is definitely something that is great but normally because not in all cases but normally it would, it, it would bring some cost reductions or like your bill would be would be reduced. So that's usually something you can, you can start, do to, to do. And it's fairly, fairly easy. Like again, it depends on the context. So, so that's one you can start to like just talk about climate, you know, in your company.

[00:25:42] You can raise, you can organize talks, raise awareness, like promote some trainings like the one I'm doing. But there's a bunch of others that are available, like in the North America and in Europe. And talk about it, engage with your value change and, and and, and clients and customers because this is a topic that they probably also care about.

[00:25:58] And there's probably some ways you can, you can start, you know, to influence them and, and, and, and try to all together reduce your emissions. But the first thing I would say is, you know, starting with measuring like there's a great tools out there. There's some free tools for website that are good for raising awareness, but maybe less precise.

[00:26:15] But there's also professional solution, like the one I'm, I'm working with fruggr, that we can help your business to measure the specific emissions digital emissions. And because, you know, you, you can improve what you can measure that would you, you can really address the biggest emittors first and then move on to the start with the low hanging fruits and, and start and continue with maybe harder harder things to, to improve on.

[00:26:38] And I would say overall like everything that as I was alluding to earlier, everything that is either unused, whether it's data old user accounts, features, scripts you name it. You know, all of it that is kind of like the fat of your product that doesn't bring any value, let's say, you can remove it.

[00:26:58] Also optimize a multimedia file, as I said, like videos, images, you know, compress them, adapt them to where the user is consuming that information. Probably 3D and animation, like, don't use them. It's probably distracting users anyway, and doesn't drive any business results in most cases.

[00:27:14] So, you know, probably be mindful about how you use them because that could just, you know all your, you know, budget, your carbon budget, let's say on, on your website of your, on your experience. And just reduce the complexity of your pages and interface because the more you know, the more your your experience is heavy bloated, the more it consumes energy. And energy is a proxy for emissions, right? We know that 80% of the word's energy is being produced by fossil fuel energy. So like, it's really a factor of like green gas emission by the amount of data that is being transferred and the energy that is being consumed by your product.

[00:27:51] So, those are a few things that I would say are, are important, but I would say start measuring it and start taking the actions to reduce it. Experiment and don't don't fall into the pattern of like only looking at like, don't, like look at the trends rather than like being a hundred percent accurate on every aspect to it.

[00:28:13] Because you wanna see the, the, the curve or the graph trending in a, in a positive way with the, with your emission being reduced rather than, than trying to reach a hundred percent of accuracy before lifting your finger.

[00:28:26] James Gill: Sure.

[00:28:27] Track 1: So that would be some stuff I would say. And maybe the last, the last thing because I don't wanna give too much of a teaser.

[00:28:35] And, and but I think it's super important is, so like everything that pertains to the emissions of, of devices of like and tangible assets like data centers, servers, and, and and, and your computers and, and, and phone and so on. I would say like as a product managers, it's super important is to make sure that you're being inclusive and you support old operating systems and all devices because the list the last thing you wanna do is to force people to upgrade their phone and buy the newest phone to be able to just use your product. And, and, and, because you know what we said at the beginning, 57% of the emissions come from, you know, manufacturing. Overall, like it's super important that we are we are not like forcing users to, to, to buy more devices because it has a huge toll on the environment.

[00:29:25] And and so that's, that's something that usually you can easily squeeze it in into your 'definition of done'. Like is it accessible on like all devices? You know, you can, you can you, you can decide whether you want to roll back two years before five years or 10 years, but, you know, lean towards like more than like old device rather than just only supporting the newest one.

[00:29:48] And those are like few examples of stuff you can do, not our . Equally easy or have the exactly the same impact, but those are just a few things that you can start, you know, engaging start applying or engaging with your stakeholders to, to see how you can reduce your, your, your footprint.

[00:30:05] James Gill: That's honestly, all of those are such powerful suggestions, Francois, I think, you know, when you think about anyone employing even one or two of those, the kind of impact they could have, you know, I, I know people that have got older that have opened up an app they use every day, and suddenly the app doesn't work for them on their device anymore.

[00:30:27] And what do you do? You got to gotta go out and buy a new phone that you don't really need or want, and and what happens to the old one? Well, yeah, we all know

[00:30:36] I like the, the kind of impact that people can have. And I, I, if I could be as bold as suggest one more suggestion and it relates to your first, one of your first round chatting about, about this, probably they could come and listen to this podcast itself then François to hear you talk about this. Because I would say to any product manager who's getting interested In this space, this your, your, what you've said here today is just, I'm gonna share this with anyone. Next time I meet a product manager, I'm gonna share this episode with them. Because your, your words are so on this topic and it, it's, so me, at least from what you've been saying, there's, there's almost no reason not to be adopting some of these principles 'cause everyone wins. And that's truly exciting.

[00:31:20] Track 1: Thank you so much James.

[00:31:21] James Gill: Yeah. Francois, thank you. Honestly, thank you for being on the show. The half hour's flown by So I just wanna make sure we wrap up and say that you can, people can find you on, on LinkedIn, right. Francois will put your link in the, in the notes and also the, the the white paper, which is coming very soon. Or maybe if you're listening to this, it might already be available. Your, that's on climateproductleaders.myflowdesk.com right now. And, and we'll be, we'll be linking to that in the show notes too. So thank you François. It's been a pleasure chatting with you.

[00:31:56] Track 1: Thank you so much, James, for the, the opportunity to, to, to spread awareness on this topic. And hopefully if if one person you know, have the, get some insight and value from this from this discussion I'll be absolutely delighted and. And if people want to dive deeper into the, the, the playbook it's free, it's gonna be available mid-November.

[00:32:17] And I'd be happy to chat with anyone who is getting value from it or have questions because I'm really doing it to have an impact and, and hopefully is gonna hold a promise.

[00:32:28] James Gill: Awesome. Thank you so much, Francois.

[00:32:31] Track 1: Thank you. Thank you, James.

[00:32:32] James Gill: And thank you everybody for listening and watching too. If you have enjoyed today's show, well hopefully you can go tell your fellow product manager friends about, about this episode and spread François' good word here. And hopefully you'll tune in next time and thank you for listening and we'll see you soon.

[00:32:51]

[00:32:56] ​