The EcoSend Podcast

S4E7
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[00:00:00] James Gill: Welcome to the EcoSend podcast.

[00:00:02] Stories from marketers, founders and

[00:00:06] Anne-Cécile Crabières: change make.

[00:00:07] James Gill: Hi,

[00:00:28] welcome to another episode of the Ecosend podcast. I'm your host, James, and I am thrilled to bring you another wonderful show today. Uh, for those of you new to the show, Ecosend, well, the Ecosend podcast is a show where I speak to other amazing people, doing great things in the world of business and in non profits, uh, usually trying to make the world a little bit better in their own ways.

[00:00:51] I am thrilled today to be joined by Anne Cecile. Uh, now Anne Cecile is from Make Sense, and Make Sense has been creating tools and programs for collective mobilization, and they enable everyone to take action and build an inclusive and sustainable society, and they've been doing that for 10 years. Anne Cecile is joining me from which I'm a little bit jealous of.

[00:01:15] Um, and Cecile, how are you doing today? I'm thrilled to be speaking to you. How's, uh, how's your day

[00:01:20] Anne-Cécile Crabières: going? Hey, yeah. Hi, hi James. Uh, thanks for inviting me here. I'm fine. It's a, it's a tough day, but, but I'm fine and it's sunny outside, so it's nice. And yes, I'm, I'm in the middle of Paris. I'm, uh, at my, um, work today.

[00:01:41] So, yeah, I think that makes sense. And it, we are in bestie, uh, so it's in middle of Paris. It's nice. You can visit whenever you want. . I,

[00:01:50] James Gill: I will, I would love to take you off on that offer. That sounds great. I, uh, . It's been a while since I've been to Paris. It's one of my favorite cities. You're welcome. It's so, so good.

[00:01:59] So, um, I, uh, I know there's a lot we can talk about. Maybe, what, so what are you up to at the moment then Anne Cecile? Uh, aside from hiding in your office in a, in a cool booth, uh, what are you, what are you up to? What's your role at, at Make Sense?

[00:02:14] Anne-Cécile Crabières: Okay. Um, so I'm working for Make Sense for seven years now.

[00:02:20] So I've been doing a lot of different things. But right now I'm in charge of the recruiters, uh, on the jobs at Make Sense platform. Maybe to know what is job that makes sense. That would be great.

[00:02:34] James Gill: Yeah, yeah,

[00:02:35] Anne-Cécile Crabières: yeah. Okay. So, um, we, with job that makes sense. Um, it's a platform to, to look for a new job with more sense.

[00:02:46] Uh, so with more impact, you want to be engaged, uh, with your job. Uh, you can go and, uh, look for a job on a job that makes sense platform and, um, I'm taking care of people that put, um, an offer on the platform, uh, the recruiters.

[00:03:06] James Gill: Yeah. The companies themselves. Okay.

[00:03:08] Anne-Cécile Crabières: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[00:03:11] James Gill: Yeah. I see. So I guess this, this must be, this is obviously a growing Failed.

[00:03:17] Indeed. Because for so many years There's been jobs, well I guess, I don't know if you'd say jobs that don't make sense, but jobs that have been, uh, purely about get the work done and you get paid for it, uh, but increasingly people want to be doing some good in the world. People want to be joining organizations that, that uh, that have a, yeah, and that is a very good thing.

[00:03:40] So, uh, so I, I take it this has been, has this been going for seven years or is it something that you just started doing recently?

[00:03:48] Anne-Cécile Crabières: Yeah. Um, so our goal with jobs that make sense is to participate in the social and environmental transformation of the society through employment, because we spend a lot of time with our work.

[00:04:03] So it's, we think it's the best to have an impact. And this platform was born, uh, more than seven years ago, actually, uh, with some volunteers. it. Um, and it was used by a lot of people, but we, um, we were not taking a lot of attention on it, you know? Um, and, uh, and then some, uh, people, uh, Jean Christophe, uh, three years ago decided to redeveloped it.

[00:04:35] And, uh, really puts a lot of effort to transform it and to make it grow and having a better impact. And that's also when I started to work for this as well, but it's been more than seven years that it exists. But before it was just like a website and we were not really. taking care of it. We changed the strategy three years ago.

[00:05:03] James Gill: Sure. So, so what kinds of, um, what kinds of roles are, are people looking for? And is, is there a typical sector that you focus on is, yeah, um, I'm intrigued by what you've seen the most. Uh, interesting

[00:05:19] Anne-Cécile Crabières: on that side. Um, there are no, no real typical, uh, sectors. Um, we have a lot of, uh, organization, NGOs, uh, on the platform.

[00:05:31] Like we have 7, 000 organization on the platform. So it's quite big and you can have like. Different organization that will, um, look for different kind of people. So, for example, you will have NGOs, um, all NGOs or all, um, social business that, that, that will just look for, Normal, um, um, normal jobs, you know, uh, so marketing, communication, developers, um, business developers, um, partnerships, uh, all those, uh, kind of, uh, job that you can find in all organization.

[00:06:12] And then you will have, uh, Really specific organization that are focused on, uh, one, uh, specific, um, job or a sector. For example, uh, sustainable energy. Sure. And they will look for really specific, uh, engineers, uh, environmental engineers, uh, those kind of sector that then are really more focused, you know?

[00:06:38] So it's quite wide. And, uh, you can have a lot of, uh, different jobs on the platform.

[00:06:44] James Gill: Yeah. So I guess if you're helping recruiters, uh, on the platform, is there ever, is there ever, uh, organizations that you don't want on the platform? Are there ever jobs that don't make sense?

[00:06:57] Anne-Cécile Crabières: Yeah, for sure. Um, it's quite hard, uh, to know, um, what is impact or not.

[00:07:05] And sometimes in the team we are like, okay, who are we to judge? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, everyone has a different definition on impact. Yeah. And so, uh, what we, we are building different stuff for that, for sure. Mm-Hmm. , we have a blacklist. Mm-Hmm. with different sectors. Um, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I, I can't find the name in English, but the oil sectors.

[00:07:34] James Gill: Yeah. Oil and fossil fuels.

[00:07:36] Anne-Cécile Crabières: Yeah, yeah, yeah. For example, uh, or, and, or, um. Uh, weapons or those kind of, uh, stuff that we don't accept on the platform. Drugs Sure. As well. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. So we have this kind of blacklist, you know, uh Mm-Hmm. about sectors. And then after, um, we also try to give the tools, uh, to the citizens, to people who come on the platform to look for a job to have.

[00:08:05] Uh, the possibility to, you know, judge by themself. Uh, so we, um, help the organization to have more transparency on what they are doing, uh, and to, uh, emphasize what they are doing, why they are, uh, impactful, uh, and those types of things. Then. This is the, the person who come to look for a job that can choose.

[00:08:32] And also we have like a lot of debates. And in turn, uh, we to choose like who is impact or not, but it's more for the clients because some organization pay, um, to, uh, be able to put more offers on the platform or to have more visibility. And for those organization, we are really. taking care and paying attention if they're impactful or not.

[00:08:59] And so we have a lot of debates and it has to be improved as well, but right now it's, it's working quite well. And also there is something that is, um, natural, you know, if, uh, an organization is really not impactful, uh, or not in a, um, in a positive way, I mean, not sustainable, um, like they will post one offer, but then it will not work because they will not find anyone because nobody will be interested on, on this offer.

[00:09:33] And so they will not come back because they will not lose time to always put offers. So, yeah,

[00:09:40] James Gill: so there's a, yeah, absolutely. There's almost a self, um, policing of, of the system where. People are on the platform looking for a purposeful job. And if there's a company that doesn't match that, then they're not necessarily going to want to apply to that.

[00:09:55] And the company. Advertising the job isn't going to get any applicants. So isn't going to see his value. So it almost self regulates. But that's a really interesting because I, it's a whole interesting topic because I think, you know, I speak to a lot of businesses who typically as a business, you care about profit, right?

[00:10:14] You care about customers, you care about making money. And you introduced this concept of like, well, some money you should say no to, some customers you maybe don't want to accept. And, and how you draw that line and who's the right person to make that call. It's, um, a lot of people, I think, struggle with this.

[00:10:31] They want to do the right thing, but, um, but it's, it's difficult. We, we ourselves, uh, find us at the ecosystem as well, uh, deciding whether someone, whether we, we truly want to support someone as a customer. Um, I think things like, things like the B Corp program make it helpful as a bit of guidance, I think, from what I've seen, like, uh With a list of, sort of, industries that are less, less, uh, suitable, so.

[00:10:59] Yeah,

[00:11:00] Anne-Cécile Crabières: that's, um We're on the platform, actually. Oh, there

[00:11:03] James Gill: we go! I didn't know that! Okay, I teed you up there! That's, um, that's really interesting. So, I, I, I've jumped into all of the discussion about jobs who make sense, and Cecile, but I didn't actually ask you, How did you get involved with this in the first place?

[00:11:21] Did you wake up one day and decide that's what you wanted to do? Was there a journey over time? I'm intrigued to hear your, your path to, to this. Yeah.

[00:11:31] Anne-Cécile Crabières: Yeah. I have a specific path, uh, path to, to this. Um, because I didn't enter in make sense or in the, um, like sustainability environments, um, through environments, uh, I entered.

[00:11:47] into this kind of world, let's say that, uh, through the social, uh, part, you know, um, because the journey to sustainability is not always through environmental and it's all linked. Um, and for me, it started with the social part. Uh, I started with cheer up. It's a, a student NGO. Um, so during my studies, uh, I, I decided to, to be part of it, to, to go and meet, uh, students without our, uh, who are in, uh, hospitals.

[00:12:24] Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And, uh, they are like us, uh, but they have a concert. Uh, yeah. And going to like meet them. Uh, have nice moments with them, uh, trying to help them realize their project. And then it's like a little word, let's say, um, through this project, um, I've heard about make sense. Uh, uh, and I participated to one event of Make Sense, and then I, um, I applied for, um, an internship there, and then I decided to stay, and I'm still there.

[00:13:08] James Gill: And then seven years later, I see. So you got addicted to doing good. Yeah,

[00:13:16] Anne-Cécile Crabières: I'd say that. I try at least.

[00:13:19] James Gill: Yeah. Yeah. That's, um, an incredible, uh, charity though, then the cheer up, you said it was called the, uh, what you were doing at university. Is that still going? Yeah.

[00:13:29] Anne-Cécile Crabières: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's part of like 20 different schools, um, in, uh, in France.

[00:13:39] Uh, uh, universities or, uh, business school or, so when you are students and you are part of those schools, you can join this organization, which is also nice because then you meet people from other schools. Yeah. So, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:13:57] James Gill: That's um, it's so interesting as well. I think something we've noticed since being more involved in the world of climate where you, um, These worlds are not like totally isolated from each other, it's like if you're doing something to try and help with climate, you're not like the competition to people doing something to help people in healthcare or, or doing something to help with diversity and inclusion, like you're There's, there's all of these different related worlds where people are trying to just I think what aligns everyone is just trying to make the world better and improve things.

[00:14:36] And it is something incredibly uplifting and inspiring, almost addictive about working on these projects and collaborating with people that, that share that kind of viewpoint. It's, uh, I think we need, we definitely, it's exciting to see more of it happening in business. It's, um,

[00:14:53] Anne-Cécile Crabières: yeah. And all the environmental issues, um, I've also linked with social issues, uh, because if you have like, you are not in the good region and then you have a lot of problems with climate, then you will have health problems.

[00:15:12] You will, um, you will, um, you will have like money problems and then it starts to become social problems. So yeah.

[00:15:22] James Gill: Yeah, absolutely. No, yeah, absolutely. You do something right for once one on one sort of axes and rarely does that good deed or like project have a negative influence on other things. It's often that it also benefits on other axes.

[00:15:41] It just, yeah, very uplifting, I think. Um, so I know. So when you, when you join Makes Sense then, and clearly having been there for seven years, they must be a wonderful organization to work at. Like, um, tell me more about what Makes Sense are up to and why have you been there for seven years, Anne Cecile?

[00:16:03] Anne-Cécile Crabières: Because there are a lot to do there. Yeah. There are a lot to do. Um, no, why I'm there for seven years, that's a good question. I think it's because I had the opportunities to do a lot of different missions and also because, um, we have a lot of freedom. Uh, we are, uh, um, can I say that in English?

[00:16:26] Experiencing? Uh, we are trying a lot of, uh, stuff, uh, in Mexico. Oh,

[00:16:32] James Gill: experimenting. Yeah. You're experimenting a lot. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:16:36] Anne-Cécile Crabières: Yeah. Uh, with a flat governance. Uh, for example. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so that's this kind of stuff that's like the freedom, the flat governance. We are trying a lot of things and it's moving a lot.

[00:16:49] And I like that. I like to play with that and to participate to that. And it's, it's great trying to, you know, invent a new society inside of make sense. And I love it.

[00:17:03] James Gill: So tell me more about that, a flat governance that, um, sounds, uh, very different to the typical. Business or organization which has a, an almighty leader and then, uh, and then layers of management and then employees and, uh, mere mortals at the, at the, on the ground.

[00:17:25] So what's, how does Make Sense operate then?

[00:17:29] Anne-Cécile Crabières: Uh, so first, uh, you should read, um, a book from Frédéric Lallou, which is, uh, which name is, um, Reinventing Organizations. So it's in English. Oh, it's in

[00:17:43] James Gill: English. I was going to say I might struggle if it's a French one.

[00:17:47] Anne-Cécile Crabières: You can have it in English. He's doing a lot of conference about that as well.

[00:17:53] And we, uh, we got inspired of, uh, from, um, Frédéric Lallou. Um, and what is a flat organization? It's, um, a big subject, but, um, First, uh, it's more about like having, we don't have hierarchy, for example. We have leaders, but we don't have hierarchy. I don't have managers. And it's just to make everyone responsible and to have, um, uh, to trust everyone.

[00:18:31] And on the capacity of everyone and on the capacity of everyone to take decisions. And when you take a decision, of course you have some stuff you should and must or have to do. Um, so for example, um, if I take a decision that, um, will have an impact of, on other people from my work, I will have to. Ask their advice.

[00:18:59] And this name, like doing that, this process is an advice process. We, we name it an advice process. So when you take a decision that have an impact that could have an impact on other people in your team, or it makes sense, you have to do an advice process. A flat organization has a lot of process like this.

[00:19:20] So we don't have hierarchy, but it doesn't mean it's a big mess. We have a special governance and we have a lot of process to make it work. And the advice process is one of them, but I can explain a lot of other process. For example, it's me who choose my salary. Right.

[00:19:39] James Gill: Wow. There's a lot of people listening who might be very much jealous of that, that answer.

[00:19:47] Anne-Cécile Crabières: Yes and no, because sometimes it's easier, you know, to have your manager that give. Like, your salary is this amount and that can, like, sometimes it's easier to have a manager that take decision for you because then you don't, uh, you're not responsible of it. So, right. Yeah. Sometimes it's easier. So.

[00:20:12] James Gill: Yeah, I see.

[00:20:13] So, so that, so that that's truly trusting then everyone in the organization. How, how big is the organization then? Is, is it like in terms of number of people?

[00:20:24] Anne-Cécile Crabières: Yeah, in France, we are 90 and all over the world, because we have also some people in Lebanon, some people, um, in, uh, the Philippines and, uh, some people Um, America's countries, uh, like Mexico, uh, Mexico, um, Peru, et cetera.

[00:20:47] So, um, uh, in the world, I think we are like 150, something like that.

[00:20:53] James Gill: Right, right. That's it. That is incredible though. But I guess like, yeah, do you, do you find that that overall that that's been a big reason why you've been so happy to, to work at the, the, that makes sense and, and to, to stay there then?

[00:21:09] That's been a huge part of it.

[00:21:10] Anne-Cécile Crabières: Yeah. I think the, the, like the largest part of it is the fact that everyone in the organization is trying to really have a real impact, positive impact, I mean, and, um, everyone is really concerned on. Um, social environmental subject and of course it's the main part of my motivation, but I think if it's been more than seven years that I'm in the organization, it's because also because of this governance, because like you have to Do new things every day to invite, invent new process, uh, especially cause I'm an HR as well.

[00:21:55] Yeah. And so you have to get organized in a special way and you, you have to invite stuff because sometimes it doesn't exist in another organization. So you have to like choose by yourself and try and try stuff and fail and try again. And yeah, this, this kind of stuff is really important for me and it's really important in your, in our values, for example, as well.

[00:22:21] Yeah, yeah. Um, yeah, I think it's because of that.

[00:22:26] James Gill: Yeah, and I guess in many ways it kind of comes back to our, like, what we were talking about earlier on around hiring and jobs and like hiring. I guess an organization that makes sense wouldn't work if. if you hired the wrong people or like, you know, people were not aligned with those values that the organization shared, underscores the importance of, of, of hiring people that, that are passionate about the same, the same things.

[00:22:52] And clearly, clearly, you've been doing a great job with that. It sounds like you've earned A very reputable, um, status to be running something like a job board for this, for this area, given the organization itself. It's, it's, um, yeah, you clearly are the experts on this.

[00:23:14] Anne-Cécile Crabières: We are trying to . Yeah. We we're also trying to, you know, share this with other organization that want to do the same.

[00:23:23] Yeah. Um, so we are programs for that, uh, for other people and also, yeah, trying to exchange on those, uh, kind of, uh, topics because other organization are also trying stuff and so that's why we also. Trying to make people speak about it, uh, for us, for them, um, like for everyone. And, um, that's why, um, in my team, so in jobs that make sense, uh, on the jobs that make sense platform, as I'm speaking with, uh, recruiters.

[00:23:56] Um, every day is like, I think I, I speak with five or 10 Ricksters every days. Wow. Two years. So it's been a lot of people and yeah. And, and so I meet a lot of HR, our, uh, um, people that are recruiting and they all want to try to do their best to have a special organization and they are all facing kind of the same problems.

[00:24:25] And so we decided to, uh, this summer to create a community. Uh, of people of, uh, HR or recruiters so that they can, you know, speak together, uh, on flat governance or just recruitment on those things and help each other so that we can all together, um, you know, uh, participate to the transformation of society.

[00:24:51] Because if we do it by ourself, just. Job that makes sense, or it will not work, you know? Yeah. Everyone. I,

[00:25:01] James Gill: I, that kind of takes me quite nicely onto like one of the questions I always like to ask people on this show, which is like, where do you see the future of your industry going? And I guess that's, you're helping shape it in many ways.

[00:25:12] Um, what, what do you think the potential is there of, of that community and how things could change for, I guess, especially hiring and recruitment in the future? Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:25:23] Anne-Cécile Crabières: Well, what I've seen, uh, and there are a lot of studies on that, um, is that a lot of people, and especially young people, but not only young people, uh, want to have more sense in their work.

[00:25:37] And so, if they want to have more sense in their work, then, The, um, let's say the, the organization that are recruiting as they have to change as well. And so is with the platform. It's what we want to do is that showing that, uh, organization that are really making effort, uh, on those, uh, topics, um, will succeed to, um, recruit easier than the users.

[00:26:12] And then. You know, we, we want the society change. Thanks to that. Uh, because like we spend so much time on our job. One of the best way to have an impact. So we really see, and we have a lot of studies that shows that more and more people want to have more sense and they don't want to work if, um, the, the goal of the company is not the good one.

[00:26:43] Yeah,

[00:26:44] James Gill: absolutely. Yeah, and then everyone wins, right? I think everyone wins. I don't see anyone losing because of that, you know?

[00:26:54] Anne-Cécile Crabières: I think so too, but I also know that it's not easy, especially on economic part. And yeah, everyone wins, but That's, it's not easy and you always have to find, you know, the good balance and, uh, yeah, for, for us as well, sometimes, uh, to find the, the good marketplace liquidity, for example, is not easy, but we, we are working for that.

[00:27:21] James Gill: Yeah, no, absolutely. It's, it's incredibly inspiring to hear because, you know, you're truly changing. So much by the, the, the values you have, uh, you know, they are incredibly important to your own organization, but because of the industry you're in, they are being multiplied by hundreds, thousands of, of other people being influenced by that.

[00:27:45] It's, um, incredibly inspiring. Um, and, uh, yeah, I, I, I am excited to see how, how things develop over the coming years. It's, uh, So, yeah, here's to another seven years of, uh, of exciting, uh, progress.

[00:28:01] Anne-Cécile Crabières: I know, but as there are a lot of projects that make sense, uh, for example, we have an investment fund, we have like an incubator, uh, we have programs for citizens to get engaged.

[00:28:14] Maybe in seven years, I will not be in jobs that make sense anymore. Right. I can change. There are lot questions and a lot to do, but right now I am, I think I'm at my place, you know, I, I love what I'm doing and, and, uh, there are still a lot of, uh, things to do to make jobs that make sense, grow and, um, to have more and more, uh, profiles on the platform that come to look for a job.

[00:28:41] Um, yeah, and most of the people were, um, type. On Google, job, job with more sense.

[00:28:51] James Gill: So you're quite well positioned for that.

[00:28:54] Anne-Cécile Crabières: Impact job. And that's how they find our platform. So we have, we still have a lot to do to grow. Um, but we, we already like doubled or, um, the amount of people that come to visit the platform, uh, since one year or so.

[00:29:14] Yeah, we are already doing a lot, but we still have millions of people to convince.

[00:29:22] James Gill: Or billions, billions even. Yeah, yeah, no, it's, uh, yeah, yeah, no, it's incredibly, incredibly inspiring. I'm sure many people listening will, um, be very inspired by what you're doing, maybe even are inspired to go check out, uh, Make Sense, jobs.

[00:29:39] makesense, to, to actually maybe explore a career path that could be even more. So, um, the time has flown by and so I can't believe we're already like basically at half an hour. So is there any, anything else you wanted to share or, um, or anything else you wanted to talk through?

[00:29:58] Anne-Cécile Crabières: Um, I think that's a good question.

[00:30:06] No, if, if you look for, um, a job with. like a sense. And right now, if you're doing a job with no sense, um, my advice would be to Like, just start to go meet people and, and start on Google, you can Google jobs with impact or start with doing like small stuff, uh, with, uh, creating some alerts, uh, on, uh, some, uh, for example, job board, uh, stuff like that and try to go meet people.

[00:30:40] people that are inside organization that for you, uh, is a good organization with an impact. And then it starts small. And then the more you meet people, the more you will be able to know, okay, this, this could be nice for me. And then you can apply to some organization. But if like this step is too big for you, just go with small steps.

[00:31:05] And unfortunately, right now jobs that make sense is more in France. And in other countries, we are trying and we are, uh, um, creating, uh, the same platform in, uh, Asian countries. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And we have some, uh, offers in English, uh, but most of them are in French. Sure. Sure. But still, people can, like, you, you can go on the platform and there is an English version and you can, like, try to look for a job and see what happens.

[00:31:37] But I'm sure, um, there are also other platforms on other, in other countries that you can Check. As well. Sure. And we have a makesense English version as well. So you can go on makesense. org if you want to get engaged.

[00:31:52] James Gill: Amazing. We'll definitely link to that on, uh, on the show notes, uh, and Cecil. And, and if people want to hear more from you or connect with you, you're on LinkedIn as well.

[00:32:01] We'll, we'll put that in the show notes as well. Um, thank you, Cecil. It's been so, uh, inspiring talking to you. Thank you for all of the amazing work you're doing. It's, um, incredibly, incredibly motivating. So Thank you very much, uh, for joining me today.

[00:32:19] Anne-Cécile Crabières: Thanks, and thanks, yeah, to you, uh, James. It was really nice to, uh, like, discuss with you, even if my English is not that good.

[00:32:28] I hope it was, uh, it was nice, and for me it was, uh, interesting as well, so. Thank you. Thanks a lot.

[00:32:35] James Gill: Thank you. Thank you. Your English is far, far better than my French. So, uh, it's been absolutely fantastic. Thank you for, for joining me. And, uh, and thank you to, uh, those of you listening or watching, um, really hope you've enjoyed the show.

[00:32:50] Do go check out Make Sense if, uh, if you're keen to learn more. And also, if you've enjoyed the show, please do let us know. It really helps us, um, spread the word about the show. Uh, what people like Anne Cecil are doing. So, uh, thank you for listening and watching today and we'll catch you next

[00:33:06] Anne-Cécile Crabières: time. Cheers.

[00:33:08] Bye.