The EcoSend Podcast

S4E8audio
===

[00:00:00] Julien Massiot: Welcome to the

[00:00:00] James Gill: Ecosend podcast. Stories from

[00:00:03] Julien Massiot: marketers, founders, and change makers. leading businesses for a better world.

[00:00:27] James Gill: Hi there, welcome to another episode of the Ecosend podcast. I'm your host, James. And for those of you new to the show, the Ecosend podcast is a weekly podcast where I talk to other inspiring leaders who are trying to make the world a little bit better in their own businesses. Every week we put out the show.

[00:00:47] We hope you like it. Um, and, uh, we're always trying to, uh, make sure other people feel inspired, motivated, entertained, educated, to, uh, make the world a little bit better in their own way. So, uh, that's the show. And today's episode, I am thrilled to be joined by Julian. Uh, Julian is an advertising entrepreneur.

[00:01:11] Now Julian helps slow brands reveal their wild side to become better than fast and furious brands. He runs an agency called Wild and Slow and I'm really excited to dig in to how Julian is helping, well, helping brands make the world a bit better, how the world of advertising can be A positive force for change.

[00:01:31] So Julian, hi, how are you doing? Welcome to the show.

[00:01:36] Julien Massiot: Hi James. Uh, I'm very happy to be here. Uh, I'm doing very great. We have a sunny weather this morning. And, um, and yeah, I'm very glad to be with you right now.

[00:01:48] James Gill: Amazing. Where are you joining from Julian? Whereabouts are you at the

[00:01:51] Julien Massiot: moment? Uh, right now we are in, uh, in the south of Nantes in France, uh, in a city called Clisson, uh, which is in the one yard of Nantes and which is known internationally because, uh, we have some of the biggest festival in Europe here.

[00:02:08] It's called the Hellfest. So for the hard rock fans or metal music fans, extreme music fans, uh, the city is full of them, uh, uh, yeah, in the spring. Uh, and it's, it's a great thing.

[00:02:23] James Gill: That's amazing. Are you a, a bit of a, a rocker yourself then? Julian? You've, you've certainly got the beard for it.

[00:02:31] Julien Massiot: actually. Yes, yes.

[00:02:32] Uh, I'm a singer and, uh, yeah, guitar player.

[00:02:38] James Gill: Oh, amazing. That's, uh, considerable more, uh, musical than I am, I must admit. , you don't, it

[00:02:45] Julien Massiot: sounds amazing. You don't play James. I

[00:02:48] James Gill: played the piano a little bit when I was at school, but I other than one Coldplay song, I'm not very good.

[00:02:55] Julien Massiot: That's good enough. That's good enough.

[00:03:00] James Gill: I really want to dive into your music career, but, but I think we want to talk about your journey into the world of sustainability, maybe the world of advertising as well. So Um, you're now the founder, your CEO of an agency called Wild and Slow. And I mean, I've seen your, your work. It looks amazing. And, um, yeah, how, how have you got to this point then, Julian?

[00:03:24] How you, uh, what's taken you down the path to running, running Wild and Slow? And why do you care about sustainability?

[00:03:33] Julien Massiot: Oh, um, well, I think I was not born to be an entrepreneur. It came, uh, it came like that. It came like just like that. Just in my career. Um, I think I was more born to be an entertainer, uh, which is in my blood, uh, since, uh, since forever.

[00:03:53] Uh, but it's true that when I started my career after business school, I went into advertising. In order to do entertainment, uh, because this is a job that can be very entertaining. We create ads. We, we play with concepts and so on. We've all

[00:04:11] James Gill: seen Mad Men, I guess. Yeah. We've all seen Mad Men. It looks pretty, I doubt the profession has changed much since the 1950s, right?

[00:04:18] Yes, it has

[00:04:18] Julien Massiot: changed a little bit. Because I've seen the whole show and, uh, my, my job is to create entertainment, not to, not to entertain, uh, my, my client into parties and so on, but, uh, it's true that, uh, this work has always been, uh, the, the moral in man, man is a good transition because, uh, There is an issue of moral, of morality in this job, uh, which is, uh, like trying to entertain at any price, any cost.

[00:04:49] And I had my disappointments in my career or so. When I started to be really aware of what we are doing with those ads, what we are doing with this job. And, uh, and especially when more and more people around me, when I, when they ask me, what do you do as a job? I say, do advertising. And it doesn't make anybody dream.

[00:05:12] Around around me at at that time, because, uh, advertising, Oh, wow, you're creating lies. You're a liar. You are creating needs that don't exist first and so on. And in the way they are right, uh, in a way they are right, especially in a time where advertising is more and more boring or so, uh, and in another way, uh, my own personal, uh, environmental consciousness, uh, developed.

[00:05:40] And, uh, I think I'm not ready to do advertising for, for everything. And it's been a while and I was not ready to advertise anything. I don't think it's a good thing for the planet to advertise pesticide, to advertise all product, to advertise meat, to advertise alcohol, to advertise, uh, anything that is controversial or polluting.

[00:06:02] Uh, because when we do that, we create a. A confusing environment, especially with greenwashing nowadays, making people believe that this is kind of acceptable, this kind of product. And, uh, it's actually a big issue for if we want to change, because, uh, we, when we create confusion, we make the most polluting companies, also the most successful companies.

[00:06:30] And we had, we would help them to, uh, to make people believe that, uh, they actually care are making efforts while they are not. And, uh, when I was more aware of this, I had no choice but to, to became my own boss because, uh, When I started to refuse clients in, uh, when I was an employee, of course, it was not what, no, you don't choose a client.

[00:06:53] You just fucking go down. Well, and, um, and I, I created first, uh, another company when, where I was. Co CEO. And, uh, I didn't have so many shares. I was the small, uh, the small, the small, uh, the small business owner. And, uh, it was not enough. So I had to create my own company, uh, and found wise and slow. And, uh, since that I could really, uh, develop the, the vision of what is a sustainable company in advertising, because what was a seed few years ago became something, uh, something more realist, realist and something that I have managed to develop intellectually and also operationally.

[00:07:39] There's

[00:07:42] James Gill: so there's so much to unpack there, Julian. I think it's fascinating hearing your story. I mean, something that often on on this podcast, I hear a lot of, of like, People need to put their neck on the line. They need to stick their, stick themselves out and make controversial decisions sometimes in business.

[00:08:03] It's not always a win win for everyone. And for you to go as far as to like, to basically start your own agency, to, to truly build the agency you want to build, it's um, It, it shows a, a real dedication and, and passion for this, which I think is beyond what a lot of people would be comfortable doing. You know, everyone, when you talk to a lot of people when they're starting a business, the idea of saying no to work is very difficult.

[00:08:34] You know, people need to make. Sure, they're bringing in revenue, bringing in clients. So how did you get to a point where you were comfortable to do that? And, and was there a, was there any, uh, was there any points where that became incredibly difficult? Have you ever been tempted to sort of say yes to a tobacco company or a, or a, you know, huge fossil fuel company?

[00:08:59] If the price was right, like there must have been some difficult decisions there or conversations at least.

[00:09:06] Julien Massiot: Yes and no. Well, anyway, in any business, there is always a temptation, but not only for what you're talking about. Uh, there is temptation for corruption. There is temptation for hiring the son of a client.

[00:09:21] There is like any, uh, All of those things have been proposed to be bought out after three months of starting my own agency. And while I was in insecurity, because you know, when you start, you don't know if you're going to make a revenue out of it. So temptations, they come all the time. And after a while, you build a stronger mindset to also, uh, Uh, to also have some consistency, you know, you don't flow with the wind.

[00:09:55] You don't fly with the wind. Uh, anytime there is something out of your way coming and trying to change your way. Um, so about those, uh, what you're talking about is one of the first decision I took when I created Wild and Slow was to define what does it mean to have a sustainable advertising company.

[00:10:17] And at that time, uh, It was only three years ago. Sustainable meant when I looked around me having a compost or, uh, uh, giving extra money to employees or whatever. Uh, so. Decisions that would take 100 euros, not decision that would take that would, that would cost more. And, um, and, uh, I didn't agree with that because as I said before, to me, uh, sustainable advertising company is a lot about, uh, it's much, it's about much more than having a compost and so on.

[00:10:54] Those things are totally obvious. It's about what are you advertising? Uh, so who are you working for and what kind of message do you put, uh, uh, on air? And, um, so I decided, I found, I figured out the method to, uh, to decide, uh, what kind of advertising we're going to do. It's actually, uh, a British, uh, methodology.

[00:11:19] It's called, uh, Client Disclosure Report. Uh, and it was created by. Uh, by a collective of agency in Great Britain and the website is called creative and climate and they have signed. They have signed, uh, uh, a commitment, which is we will commit to, to be transparent about our turnover and, uh, we will, we will share, uh, how much money we do on the most controversial and polluting sector.

[00:11:48] And I went a little bit further, so I have this transparency plus on my website, there is a list of which sector we don't want to work for. So basically, if you are in that sector, you're not welcome and which sector we want to work for. Once this is done, this is such a good tool to not get out of our way because we have written it since day one.

[00:12:13] Committed, yeah, yeah. If we decide to work for an oil company just because it's practical in terms of money, people in our community, they will be betrayed. And they will not understand. So to us, it's a matter of survival now to, uh, not betray our community because I'd, I mean, I'd rather close my company right now if I, if I would betray those commitments that are still written and that are updated every year.

[00:12:41] So that's amazing. And they are written not in such a stupid or naive way. You know, we have really thought about it. For example, I tell to you, all company. This is a very generic thing, but we have written something like companies that do more than, uh, more than 10 percent of their turnover with oil. So we don't exclude companies that are, let's say, uh, they do, uh, 90 percent of wind energy, but they still have an old leftover of oil thing.

[00:13:14] And, uh, it's not at all the same philosophy as those, as those who do, uh. Who do 90 percent of oil and are trying to make us believe they're sustainable while all the sustainable businesses are just, uh, here to, uh, to promote the oil business or to, uh, you know, to, um, to be a little change. It's not actually.

[00:13:38] James Gill: Yeah, I, I love that, Julian. It's I, I think it's, um, there's something to take away there, like just in business in general, like the idea of holding yourself accountable and finding ways to. Yeah. to hold yourself true to what you promise and to have that written down to have that publicly shared to be doing that with your peers.

[00:14:00] I, I just so inspired by that. I think it's, um, I mean, whatever business people are in or, or, Company they're running like there's probably opportunities to take something from that to to help themselves stay accountable to these when You know, we all know how difficult sometimes those decisions can be when the the money is being dangled or they the possible Contract is is Tempting someone especially, you know, and at least in the UK and I think a lot of the world right now.

[00:14:31] There's A lot of businesses really struggling and really struggling to make, make ends meet. So when it comes to survival as a business, it can be, I think, incredibly difficult for some businesses. Uh, but yeah,

[00:14:47] Julien Massiot: yeah. Uh, what if, if I may say, uh, this kind of commitment, it also creates trust. And in my business, when I tell, when I was telling you, you're all liars because you're advertisers, this business needs also trust.

[00:15:04] And, um, and this is also, uh, this kind of decision that recreates trust that you are not just, uh, today it's environment tomorrow. It's going to be something else. You don't care. I don't trust you. It creates trust. And, uh, so of course we have refused some potential collaborations. But also we have gained so much, like we have always to put in perspective what we lose and what we gain with that trust we have gained.

[00:15:33] And I think I told you in the pre pre brief of, uh, of this recording that I never had to use, uh, my phone to do, to do cold hunting, to do cold, uh, cold calls because, uh, with that trust and with, uh, with that thing, the word of mouth works well. And also, uh, uh, also people find us to hear it. We don't, we are not looking for clients.

[00:15:57] The clients, they come to us directly.

[00:16:00] James Gill: That's a pretty good situation. Yeah. So it's a pretty good, sorry, sorry, it's

[00:16:07] Julien Massiot: a lot of work. We have to work our SEO visibility. It doesn't come like just, we took the decision. It comes, but still it's, it participates to create trust and it's participate to be profitable.

[00:16:18] Sometimes we have clients to say, we only work the work with, uh, Companies that are committed in terms of environment, in terms of, uh, good social condition and so on, we have, uh, we have made a public tender, for example, and, uh, among all the companies, it's true that there is a big difference with yours and we trust it more because you took real decisions and so on.

[00:16:42] Yeah. So it shows also. Yeah, absolutely. I, um,

[00:16:47] James Gill: I, there's so much we could talk about on this topic alone, Julian, but I'm conscious. I know we, there's many other things we wanted to talk about. So I, um, I, I mean, already I'm, I'm truly very inspired by what you've been sharing now of how you've been building wild and slow.

[00:17:03] It's, it's, it's incredible. Um, you, you, uh, yeah. One of the topics you wanted to talk about, which maybe overlaps with a lot of what we've been talking about there, but asking the question, we all talk about sustainable companies, sustainable services, but what to you is a sustainable service? Like, how do you, how do you think about

[00:17:24] Julien Massiot: that?

[00:17:25] What to me is a sustainable service. And I wanted to talk about it.

[00:17:32] James Gill: Well, I, I know you were, you were talking about, um, when we were speaking before you tune up. Scope one and two calculations and, and how, you know, your, your impact, I guess there's a lot of overlap of what we've just been talking about, but, but, uh, but how, how, how to think about that as a business.

[00:17:53] And again, like some of those difficult decisions that come into that.

[00:17:57] Julien Massiot: Um, yes. So, uh, In my business, there are three ways to be sustainable. It's first our own impact, how much kilometers we do, plane, uh, food and so on. Then, uh, um, there is what we do also for our clients. Do we do, uh, uh, do we design our services in, uh, In a eco friendly way, uh, which we have expertise for this, by the way, we do brand design, uh, we do eco brand design, let's say, with, uh, with less ink, uh, websites, with less conceptions and so on.

[00:18:36] Um, but it's true that, um, uh, there is an official calculation of Kanban impact, uh, with three scopes, scope one, scope two, scope three. We have made it for this year. We are. Our impact is one third of the average of our sector. We do, uh, uh, we create three tons of carbon per year per collaborator, uh, while the average is 8.

[00:19:02] 5. And, uh, it's amazing what it shows also, because it shows that 98 percent of our impact is what they call scope three in this scope three only includes. In what we calculate is with our providers. So what I was telling you, which is, uh, let's say, uh, society impact, which is, uh, uh, um, creating advertising for polluting companies is, has really a bad impact on the society.

[00:19:34] It's not even calculated. And already 98 percent of our impact is caused by what we buy, uh, to our providers. That's why I say. A compost, less kilometers and so on. It's very good. These are basic decisions, but this is 2 percent of, uh, of the impact of a company. So really consider the rest is because, uh, it's easy to calculate the kilometers, the electricity.

[00:20:04] It's very easy to calculate. So people, they over focus on it. They over, they tend sometimes to overvalue it, especially because those methodologies, they are old. So they are usually a list of thing. We are great because we do this, that, that, and that. But now with more modern, uh, methodologies, we calculate And we know that decision one doesn't have the same impact at all as decision two.

[00:20:34] And it, it helps so much people to prioritize, you know, to, uh, to, to, to figure, to, to go from what I do, I do what I can. I do those little decision that make a difference to, I am, I am doing the right decisions that have the most impact on my company and on environment. And, uh, so I feel that what I'm doing.

[00:20:57] It's important because I know it, it's been calculated. It's a big difference and it's, it gives courage also because when you know, where is your priority, it empowers you, you know, you, you know, that what you're doing has a really strong impact and it gets you out or so of those conversation that are bringing you down, which is, yeah, you do this, but, uh, uh, but it's, it's compensated by this bad action or this, like, uh, You go out of the debate with those rational calculations.

[00:21:28] This, I mean,

[00:21:30] James Gill: this is fascinating. I know, um. If I rewind like a year, I wasn't too familiar with the concept of scope 1, 2, 3 for for carbon calculations. I, I would imagine many people listening are perhaps not, not too sure about that themselves. But, but to clarify the scope 3 emissions, I keep hearing from a lot of businesses like 90, 95 percent of their emissions are scope 3 emissions.

[00:21:58] And so for you. Julian, with Wild and Slow, what, what is the Scope 3 emissions? Is that, is that the people that are buying the products that you're helping to, to, uh, promote? Is, is it the, the campaigns you run and what, what the actions are that come off the back of that?

[00:22:17] Julien Massiot: Um, it's, it's a bit complex because Scope 3 is, uh, there is new complex, new, um, new concepts.

[00:22:24] In scope three coming up these days, scope three is your indirect, uh, carbon emissions, uh, they have been provoked by your business, but they are not, uh, uh, they are not inside, uh, exactly, uh, uh, your business. So it's, uh, it's the big majority. And, uh, uh, this is, for example, your provider, for example, you bought the chair.

[00:22:51] And to, to, to, uh, to build this chair, uh, the provider had to, uh, use water, uh, use material, raw materials, and so on. This is scope three, but, uh, but when I say this, this is quite concrete already. And there is a new scope three that we are talking. I call it the extended scope three, which is, uh, Maybe to do this chair some people had to be killed or maybe to do this chair You'll I see your face but to produce some clothes some children have has to be reduced to slavery You know, and, uh, uh, and so, uh, this is serious discovery, you know, and this is the most hidden part.

[00:23:41] And if I do a, an advertising campaign for a meat, then it will, uh, uh, it will create a climate where people will want to consume more meat while it's. Some of the most polluting food industry, uh, not to talk about, uh, uh, the, the condition of the animals and so on. I'm not saying that we should not eat meat.

[00:24:05] I, I am not against meat and so on. I'm not against alcohol in general and so on, but over promoting alcohol, over promoting meat, or even promoting those products, uh, this is not my cup of tea because for alcohol. We know the issues in some countries, it's even forbidden, uh, uh, to promote alcohol. Um, and to promote meat, uh, it has an impact on the society.

[00:24:30] Uh, and this is very, very hard to calculate.

[00:24:34] James Gill: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. It's incredibly difficult, but also clearly where so much of that true impact is. Right. It's, um, so how, I guess then Julian, like how How do you promote sustainable products? How do you promote sustainable companies? And and how, how do you approach that and, and give the more sustainable alternative, uh, a good shot at being considered in by consumers.

[00:25:05] Julien Massiot: So, uh, as I told you, uh, I'm an entertainer

[00:25:10] James Gill: and I can see that I can hear that too.

[00:25:14] Julien Massiot: My vision about this is, uh, Emotional and around entertainment. I think the issues with sustainable brands is that they are boring and, uh, they are a bit too much about moral. And, uh, uh, what I advise, uh, what I advise my clients is to put the, to put the moral argument, we are sustainable and so on, on a second layer, not as a first layer, uh, why?

[00:25:46] Because for example, uh, if you look at France, uh, the organic industry is going very bad. Uh, the shops are closing and so on because it's expensive also, but also because it's boring as fuck. I don't know. I don't know any bio brand. I don't know. Sorry for my language. I don't know any bio brand. I'll allow it.

[00:26:10] I'll allow it this time. I don't know any organic brand that has been as entertaining as, uh, McDonald's or, or any, uh, non organic brands. And, uh, They think advertising is dirty. All our advertising is for, uh, is for McDonald's and so on. Not for us. Uh, but they don't take the risk to be liked or to be loved by people.

[00:26:33] The only, uh, are on a rational level. I mean, I'm doing a bit of a caricature here, but, uh, it's really the issue because people, they choose with their heart. They don't choose with their brain. Our cognitive activity is essentially emotional. You can read about this, uh, The Nobel Prizes of the 21st century, Daniel Kahneman, Richard Taylor, they are all about behavioral economics and they are all helping us to own that we are emotional behaviors and that the rational consumer, he exists, of course, we all have a brain, we are able to do it, but when we are, but we don't do it all of the time during all of the day when we are shopping hungry.

[00:27:18] We, we, we buy something that is satisfying. We, we are every day when we are shopping, we are not comparing everything. We are just buying with our habits, with our dopamine, with our insulin and so on. So we need to reconsider that we are emotional beings and. We have to catch those emotional brain, even for sustainable produce and sustainable services.

[00:27:45] So I have a sentence in French. I would try to translate in English, but don't let the monopole of coolness of coolness to the irresponsible ones. Don't leave the monopole of coolness to the irresponsible ones, sustainable brands, they have to be cool as well. One of the, for example, one of the best advertising I know for secondhand clothing is that song from, uh, Michael Moore and Wyan Lewis, which is a thrift shop, uh, I think I gotta have some fun cause I have 20 in my pocket.

[00:28:25] This, uh, this, uh, this video, this clip. It's been seen a billion times, and they are talking about, uh, 3Shop, and it's cool. They are singing, they are doing music about it. This is how we want to talk about this, because it's important. It makes you want to do it, not something like, you know, uh, the industry of clothing is very polluting in order to less pollute.

[00:28:49] You need to buy less clothes and look like shit. No, you cannot do this because with this, with this kind of moralization, people, uh, the same year, for example, as, uh, Fashion brands have been accused to, uh, to make the wiggles, uh, to make, uh, to make, uh, some people of China work in kind of slavery, uh, conditions the same years they made the highest profits.

[00:29:17] It didn't, it didn't touch anything in their profits because the brand still managed to be cooler and the other brands that are sustainable that don't do this. We don't know who they are. They don't appear and so on. So if you want to take the place of the, those cool brands. Take your risk, have some fun, and tell people it's going to be alright and fun.

[00:29:39] Don't tell them it's going to be boring and, uh, and so on.

[00:29:43] James Gill: You're so right, Julian. I, uh, I, I am incredibly entertained by, by this, but also incredibly inspired, uh, by your, your thinking here. It's, uh, it's, when you put it like that, it seems so obvious. And, and you're right, I'm struggling to think of, Great brands that truly stand up for, for these, these values and, and it's easy to list off the vast majority of all of the incredible brands that have been built in the 20th century in particular that do not put sustainability or the planet or people very high on their agenda.

[00:30:20] Um, I, I, I'm conscious we've already gone through a half hour. I kind of don't want this episode to end. I, I, I do want to just make sure we cover off one final topic, which is Hopefully, uh, you, I, you know, I'm sure you'll have something to, to share on this Julian, but the future, what does business look like?

[00:30:41] What does marketing and business look like in, in the near, the near future or whenever, over the next few years? Um, what, what's going to change? What's going to stay the same?

[00:30:53] Julien Massiot: Uh, the future of marketing, I think, uh, well, I think there will be IA. More ia, so, uh, uh, no, ai, sorry, AI

[00:31:05] James Gill: in, I, I mean, IA might, might also come along.

[00:31:08] You know, a, I don't know what I wanna see with AI in reverse.

[00:31:11] Julien Massiot: I , I mean, uh, in, uh, artificial intelligence Yeah, I know would be more implemented in our field, of course, because, uh, because it has also its qualities. And or, uh, it'll put a different level on what humans will bring. It's interesting that there is this, uh, artificial inte, inte intelligence revolution right now because it, uh, what do we do as humans, as advertiser?

[00:31:40] Know that there is a lot of possibility to automatize something and, uh, I think it will, uh, higher the level, uh, in terms of, uh, the ability to give, uh, good advice. Giving good advice, which is good advice. It means moral advice, efficient advice, and, uh, uh, to conceptualize stories that are deep, honest, and creative.

[00:32:10] And, uh, I think it's not easy to do the three at the same time, you know, uh, to, to do something which is deep. That that shows to the guts, you know, uh, honest and creative. And, uh, I think that, uh, in my field, the value of, uh, of honesty and trust would really rise because what can we trust when some of the things are made with machines, when, uh, when, uh, so many brands are lying or exaggerating, when there is generally, uh, uh, A moral issue in that business.

[00:32:51] Uh, I think that, uh, the honesty and the way to face the modern challenges will be, uh, will be the key, you know, integrity, uh, you know, I, I started in this business, uh, I was working like a slave, basically working from, uh, For almost zero money and, uh, 1, 300 euros net, I remember from, uh, very often until midnight, this business was, you know, made like this, you, in order to work in this creative business, you have to work hard, uh, without counting your hours and so on.

[00:33:26] And I think this cannot last. So there are so many revolutions of, uh, you know, uh, that are human, that are technologic and that are moral, that will be key to the future of this business. That is, that is actually quite an uplifting

[00:33:43] James Gill: viewpoint of the future, Julian. I appreciate that. I'm glad we're ending on a, yeah, something, something to, to not, not fear too much, I think.

[00:33:53] I appreciate that. I know you also wanted to mention a couple of books that have been very influential for you that might be of interest to others. What were those books,

[00:34:04] Julien Massiot: Julian? Um, Well, I would say the most, uh, the most influential for me, I always quote them. Um, I like Dan Ariely, which is, his book is called Predictably Irrational.

[00:34:20] And, uh, I understood a lot about, uh, About how our brain works. And, uh, if you want to convince it, and this book is useful as useful to negotiate your salary, uh, as, uh, to, uh, know what present to bring to a friend, when you are invited as for marketing strategies, you know, uh, there is a lot of, uh, emotional concepts that are, that are very interesting as a, you know, and, and curve ensure value.

[00:34:51] For example, when I talk about salary, the first one who talks. puts the value on the table and everything will be around this. So if you put 2000 on the table and I wanted four, it's not possible. There won't be any negotiation. It's more or less 20 percent from the first value, you know? So it's very important, this first value.

[00:35:15] And it's important, not only in a salary negotiation, but in many things. So I like this book and, uh, I think I told you also a bit earlier about, uh, Daniel, Daniel Kahneman. Uh, who wrote the Thinking fast and slow. In 2002, he was Nobel Prize of Economy, and it's the same. It's about how our brain works. And on a personal level, I was always a lot into my studies when I was younger.

[00:35:49] And I was always thinking that my brain will be, my brain is fantastic, and it will bring success in my life. And, uh, but there was something missing in my life, which was a my emotional animal part that I didn't let express or accept. And, uh, I think people are happier with their emotional and animal part.

[00:36:13] And when I got to own it, explore it, give it more value, I became more happy and more satisfied. So, uh, it's not, we are overvaluing the brain and, uh, in our society, we are very mental, very, very mental. And we forget to be back to, uh, to, to, to have to put positivity on our emotions. I love both of those

[00:36:39] James Gill: books.

[00:36:40] Uh, Julian, I, I know, um, You know them? I remember, I, I remember reading Predictably Irrational a long time ago and finding it far, far more inspiring and influential than any economics class I took at school. And, uh, yeah, I, I can't say enough good things about that. And, and yeah, they're both fantastic books.

[00:36:59] Thank you so much for recommending them. We'll, we'll definitely link to those in the, uh, in the notes. Um, and, uh, Julian, I want to talk to you all day, but I've got to wrap up the show, I'm afraid. So I am sure there are many people listening or watching that would love to hear more of you, maybe even work with you.

[00:37:17] Uh, I can see you've got some links here. I think in our default template We put a twitter thing in and you've put never next to that which I love Um, but you are on linkedin and you have a fantastic and beautiful website. Uh, so, uh, Thank you. The the website is wild and slow Uh a dot agency if you're english, but if you're french, there's a dot fr which is great.

[00:37:43] Um, so julian Thank you so much for joining me. It's been an absolutely wonderful, inspiring, and incredibly entertaining episode.

[00:37:55] Julien Massiot: so much for inviting me, James. I hope my English was, uh, was all right, and it was really, uh, I really had a great time with you. You are really uplifting, James. Oh, you're

[00:38:06] James Gill: too kind, too kind. Julian, we're gonna have to play out this episode to thrift shop, I think So I'll, I'll see if we could do that. I dunno if we can get the licensing, but , thank you Julian.

[00:38:19] Uh, and, uh, thank you everyone for, uh, if you've been listening or watching, thank you for, for tuning in. We appreciate everyone who, uh, listens and, uh, watches to the show. And if you've enjoyed this, please do tell your friends family. about this and, uh, spread the word and, uh, we'll catch you

[00:38:39] Julien Massiot: next time.