The EcoSend Podcast

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[00:00:00] Chris W: Welcome to the EcoSend podcast. Be inspired, educated and entertained by the world's most ambitious leaders, putting climate at the top of their agenda. Welcome

[00:00:27] James Gill: to another episode of the EcoSend podcast. I'm James, your host, and this is a show where we talk to wonderful, inspiring leaders about how they're a little bit better in their own businesses. Today, I am thrilled to be joined by Tim Jones, who is Also known as the B Corp bloke. Tim is the CEO, founder, and B consultant at Grow Good, a global consulting firm that specializes in helping businesses simplify and fast track their B Corp journey.

[00:01:02] I'm very excited to be talking to you today, Tim. Hello from London. How are you doing over there?

[00:01:06] Time Jones: Hello. Yeah, good day. Kda, as we would say here in New Zealand, , or, I am half Welsh, so I am, and I've been learning a bit of Welsh. We'll go with Shamai for the Welsh listeners that you have out there.

[00:01:17] James Gill: Amazing.

[00:01:18] I'm definitely gonna need some subtitles if we continue the Welsh I .

[00:01:20] Time Jones: Yeah. A year, A year on Duolingo. And I, I wouldn't say I'm fluent, but I can probably bitch my way through some stuff. .

[00:01:27] James Gill: Brilliant. Well, I've already learned something, so Yeah, there we go. . Thanks for joining me today, Tim. I know. On my side, we're, what are we, 8, 8.

[00:01:36] 30ish in the morning. On your side, you've just had dinner. So this is probably the longest distance episode of the show we've done yet, I think. Excellent.

[00:01:44] Time Jones: Look at that, power of the internet.

[00:01:46] James Gill: It's incredible what we can do these days, isn't it? I'm, I'm thrilled to be chatting. Obviously on this show we've had a fair bit of discussion about B Corp in the, in the past.

[00:01:56] And we ourselves are going through the B Corp process at the moment. Lots of wonderful businesses going through this movement. But I guess before we dive into that, It'd be great to hear more about you Tim. Who are you? And what are you up to?

[00:02:09] Time Jones: Yeah, who am I? The, the, the ultimate question. So yeah, I guess.

[00:02:14] The majority of my work is currently focused on helping companies simplify and fast track their journey to B Corp. We just find, yeah, a lot of people get stuck on the journey. If they don't have, you know, sustainability knowledge internally it can just be a tricky process. So that, that's the vast majority of what I do.

[00:02:29] Yeah, been, been sort of hanging around the B Corp movement since about 2014 was when I first came across it after having a bit of an early what I call it, early midlife crisis or a hard Brexit from the corporate world where I live in Christchurch here in New Zealand. We had a sequence of massive 2011 and then 2012, my wife and I had our daughter and over that period of time had a, what, what is called in the clinical literature a subconscious awakening.

[00:02:54] So I'd, I'd been very happily just, you know, earning money and living a corporate life in the world of medical device sales. So yeah, selling hips and knees to orthopedic surgeons and then spinal insurance and implants to neurosurgeons and orthopedic surgeons. And yeah, having this kind of wake up moment.

[00:03:09] I was like, hang on a minute. Actually, the companies that I work for aren't that nice. It's well documented and there's a documentary on Netflix called The Bleeding Edge, which is a bit of an expose of the sort of corruption and malfeance in the medical device world. I think the pharmaceutical world is fairly well documented as to, you know, You know, how perhaps they've not been the world's best corporate citizens, but the medical device world is almost a thousand times bigger, but probably ten thousand times less well known.

[00:03:34] But yeah, any, anyone you know who's been into the hospital to have, you know, a grandmother or mother or parent or auntie or uncle who's had a hip replacement or, or anything like that, you know, there's, there's a lot of people like that. 10 15 companies trying to sell that product to the surgeon to get them to use their version of it.

[00:03:48] And it's quite competitive. Yeah, so Had that bit of awakening and then I ultimately on a massive journey of self discovery. Sort of work out, well, what is life all about, you know, why am I working for these companies. We're basically knowingly killing patients in pursuit of profit. Wow. And you kind of go, well, if there's one industry in the world that should just be about saving lives, it should be the medical one.

[00:04:09] But, yeah, it turns out that the companies and in some cases the private institutions, so private hospitals, and in some cases the surgeons who were operating, you know, in private, were more focused on the financial side rather than you know, patient care. And so yeah, you kind of went down that, you know, went down a bit of a rabbit hole of self discovery and on that journey, I came across this B Corp thing.

[00:04:31] I was like, okay, wow, this is, this is it, you know, this is, Yes, make money, but don't profiteer. And also while you're making your money, just consider how that's impacting people on the planet. Well, that doesn't seem like a dumb idea, really, but you know, from what I came out of. And so, yeah, here I am nine years later, still talking to B Corp, to anyone that will listen.

[00:04:49] So, my

[00:04:52] James Gill: goodness, I, I had no idea about that, that previous life, Tim. And it sounds like it's really driven you into wanting to change things. What a, what an inspiring kind of. story to, to come into this from. I, I guess I guess as well, like, at that time, 2014, How long had B Corp been going? That was very early days, right?

[00:05:13] Time Jones: Yeah, I mean, B Corp was started in 2006 in the States. But yeah, the first couple, I think in year one, they certified ten companies or something. You know, the co founders. So B Corp, so my company is a B Corp, you're going to become a B Corp, but B Lab is the non profit entity that runs the certification framework.

[00:05:30] And the three co founders of B Lab, Jay, Andrew, and Bart, yeah, they founded that in 2006. And in the first year they got 10 they were all in, well Bart and Jay were involved with And One, which is a global basketball apparel brand. And after they exited that, they, they realized that they wanted to, they, they realized the opportunity that business has for making a difference in the world.

[00:05:52] Yeah. Versus, you know, either the investment world or I guess the political world. So yeah, the B Corp world at that time in 2014, there was one. Well, there were two B Corps here in New Zealand. There was maybe a handful in Australia. Globally, it was around about 1000. And we're now at 8, 000, well over 8, 000.

[00:06:13] I think the UK's got over 2, 000 now. Yeah, we're doing alright in the

[00:06:16] James Gill: UK. We seem to be on the up and up in the UK. Whenever I go to the local shops, I see that bee more and more.

[00:06:23] Time Jones: Just everywhere. I mean, I was just at a networking event just now. It was hosted at a Bee Corp's venue. They were hosting another Bee Corp, and on the table, we had a Bee Corp soft drink, some Bee Corp chocolate, and The, and there was another B Corp brand, I can't remember what it was, it's like, it's almost like B Corp Inception now, wherever you go, whereas before, you know, you'd go and it may, maybe there'd be one small reference to B Corp, and then everyone else would be like, I don't know what you're on about, what you're on about, but now, you know, your awareness is there, and like you say, increasingly, you go into your local supermarket, your local, you know, corner shop, You can probably buy five to ten B Corp brands, which is phenomenal.

[00:06:58] Yeah,

[00:06:58] James Gill: absolutely. It's, it's, it's all heading in the right direction, it feels. I, I guess, I don't know, maybe there are some people listening or watching that are wondering It's like, what is this business? Yeah, wait a minute. It's just this bee. I keep hearing bee. What is, what is the bee? What is, what is this?

[00:07:15] Back up the track. Yeah.

[00:07:17] Time Jones: It's, it's, it's, it's not ironically I was asked to MC a conference, I think about a couple of years ago. It was the New Zealand Apiary Society, which is the beekeepers. And I thought about making some, some bee jokes around B Corp, but I thought, this is pretty niche. I don't want to go there.

[00:07:32] But yes, we're not talking, we're not talking about bees or beekeepers. So B Corporations are this new form of business that aims to balance purpose and profit. So historically you start a business, I mean, particularly in the UK you know, it's really easy. You go to a company's house, you register a company, we're in business, literally you are in business.

[00:07:51] And then the next

[00:07:52] James Gill: day you make a million pounds. Yeah, that's how it works. Yeah, obviously.

[00:07:56] Time Jones: And you know, your, your only duties are to trade sovereignly and legally. That's it. That is the baseline for business. And I guess I mean, yeah, the founders of B Corp and B Lab bit like myself had this realization that you, that there's a, there's a better way to run business.

[00:08:11] So to become a B Corp, you go through what I like to call a rigorous, but achievable independent verification process where your business's performance across five areas currently is assessed. So it looks at your governance your workers, your community impact, your environmental impact, and then your customer model.

[00:08:28] And it basically looks at your performance and you get benchmarked. It's a, it's a score based system where you need to meet a minimum threshold of 80 out of 200 points. And once you've, on this initial self assessment, it's basically like a big online assessment tool. Once you think you're across the 80 out of 200 threshold, you then submit your assessment, if you want to, for the independent verification by B Lab.

[00:08:48] And so the assessment tool, if you just Google B Impact assessment, it's completely free to go and have a look at the tool and just, Just start thinking about your business and how it's performing in a manner other than its financial performance. But yeah, if you want to go and get the independent certification, you might be able to see the red certificate behind me.

[00:09:04] That's my OG B Corp certificate back in the day. I don't think they do red ones anymore. So to get the certificate, to get the independent proof, that you are doing what you say you're doing, then you have to go and be audited by B Lab. And that's essentially, and I always forget, but people then always ask, what does the B stand for?

[00:09:20] So the B stands for benefit. So basically beyond just making money for your shareholders or, or the people that own your company, what benefit does your company provide, you know, more broadly to people on planet?

[00:09:31] James Gill: Sure thing. I, I mean, I, that was a great, great summary. Thank you, Tim, for that. I I, I, I had definitely seen the B Corp logo quite a lot as a consumer and it took a while for me to realize that.

[00:09:45] It was actually such an accessible thing and now, now going through it, we haven't yet been independently assessed. I, I think it's, it's been this incredibly helpful framework for understanding more about how to do business better. I think there was a bit of an eye opener for me when it kind of dawned on me that, You don't have to leave the charitable stuff to charities.

[00:10:11] And you don't have to leave all the good stuff to charities. Like, business is, it's okay to do some good. I think that's quite an, once you see you kind of unlock that in your brain, because I feel like so much of the history of business has been, profit and revenue and growth and everything else is a distraction.

[00:10:32] I don't know, it's not really a question, but it's more of a comment. I just feel like that's quite an awakening. Well,

[00:10:36] Time Jones: they're two good comments and time and time again, we hear of people who say, this is exactly what you just said, you know, I had no idea that my business could do this stuff. And the evidence is there and is overwhelming that the businesses that do do this stuff, that are better, that do think about more than just making money, Do better, you know, so I like to say it makes sense and sense, you know It's good business sense, but there's there's also money in it.

[00:11:02] You know, it's I kind of riff off the Beginnings of the B lab and B Corp movement being from the basketball world Yeah, there is a slam dunk business case for B Corp because there is you know Or I call it the ROI types to the data is clear And there was a recent study done late last year by B lab You They did a meta analysis of 18 different you know, papers, essentially, white papers on the performance, financial performance of B Corps versus non B Corps, and in 16 out of 18, they showed that B Corps performance had either a neutral or positive impact on the financial you know success of the company, and two out of 18 showed that there were potential short term costs with going through B Corps certification.

[00:11:44] What's up, Wolf? There's, there's examples of that. You know, there's you know, if a company has to completely change its manufacturing process because it's, it realizes having gone through this, actually, this is really dirty. Like we might be using coal fired, you know, power to dry our product. Let's say it's a, it's a food based product.

[00:12:01] And then you've been using coal based power. Well, yeah, you might have to look to electrify that. Okay, well, yeah, there's going to be an operational cost, but yeah. That's a clear win for the planet. You know, to, to, to change that. So yeah, the, the, the economic evidence is there. A good mate of mine here, he he talks about it, you know, it's just, it just shines a light into the corners and crevices of your business that you didn't even know existed.

[00:12:20] And having done that, you know, you can create a better business, but also just talking about, you know, but yes, businesses, I think has been hoodwinked into the idea of profit at all costs. It's, it's, It's a relatively recent phenomena, though, because I think if you, if you look back to the indulge me for a second, so I have a degree in medieval history.

[00:12:40] Okay,

[00:12:41] James Gill: that's opened up a whole other topic. Yeah.

[00:12:44] Time Jones: From medieval history to medical device consultant to be equal consultant yet discuss. But if you think back, you know, back in. Well, I don't know if your name, Gill, if that's, is that short for something? Is it maybe short for Gilly or, I don't know, but if you look at a lot of surnames that people carry in the modern world,

[00:13:01] James Gill: you know, like

[00:13:01] Time Jones: Fletcher, Cooper, Shoemaker.

[00:13:04] James Gill: Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:13:05] Time Jones: The work that you did was so important to the community that you provided that product for that you were ultimately named after your contribution. And

[00:13:15] James Gill: so

[00:13:15] Time Jones: back in the day, if I was making some shoes and you're making the barrels, if you start making really shoddy barrels that aren't fit for purpose, and then you start taking too many trees down, which means that the house builder Can't actually, it hasn't got enough.

[00:13:30] It's not long before it's like, James, look, appreciate your barrels are pretty good, mate, but you're being a bit of a dick. So could you stop? Or else you need to go and find a new village. And so there was almost like a containment, almost like the it's like the what do they call it? The failure of the commons or the, you know, the loss of the commons.

[00:13:47] That whole idea of like things held in common that we all have to rely on put an artificial or put a constraint on you taking too much. Whereas, you know, business has kind of morphed over the last 100 years, you know, really post the industrial revolution where it's like, well, hang on a minute. Okay. I can now make more than I need.

[00:14:06] And I can now like I can make a massive excess and then you kind of get the introduction of the whole idea of shareholders. Okay, now I can get other people's money to put into my business to scale even further. But then you also look back at like the Quaker run businesses in the late post industrial era, like the Cadbury's, We actually had these benevolent business owners who built worker housing and made sure people were paid a good wage and gave people time off and gave them sick leave, which, you know, wasn't the thing.

[00:14:33] So it's, I think it's interesting when, when we actually, it's kind of almost a mate of mine came up with it, but I've stolen it. He let me have it. It's like, I kind of feel the B Corp movement and the business for good is about reclaiming the lost soul of business because I think business used to have a soul, it used to be thinking about how it interacted with people around it, but it's, it's actually a recent blip that it's gone the other way.

[00:14:53] So I think it's within all of us to want to do the good. It's just that we've lost, we've lost, you know, touch with it.

[00:15:00] James Gill: I did not expect us to get back to medieval times here. Here we go. That was pretty eye opening, actually. It's such a good, such a good point, though, like, yeah, I mean, we live in this world today with so much, you know, the term, I remember at school learning about the term globalization and, you know, and, and the existence of container ships taking everything around the world and Yeah, and then yeah, I think you sort of, I guess in some ways I think about like the 80s as that peak of like, buy, buy, buy, sell, sell, sell, and greed is good, and I don't know if you remember

[00:15:33] Time Jones: it, but it would have been like early 90s, the whole, the no fear brand, and it had like these two eyes, Like sort of angry looking eyes.

[00:15:42] And one of the slogans they had on a t shirt was he who dies with the most toys wins. And it's like, that just sums up the late eighties, early nineties mindset of just consume, consume, consume, have more, have more, just all about you. You know, don't worry about anybody else or anything else. But, and I think also, I guess you have to look at, you know, good old Maggie Thatcher with her, you know, there is no such thing as society, you know, it's all about you.

[00:16:06] That just rampant individualism that was, you know, given to us or told that that's how we should operate in the 70s and 80s, that sort of Thatcher Reagan economics.

[00:16:15] James Gill: But

[00:16:16] Time Jones: we're a deeply tribal animal. We, we, we have to have society. You know, we are, we are relying on other people because you cannot be, you know, no man is an island.

[00:16:26] You cannot just be out there on your own looking after yourself because at some point you will need someone else. And I think we're slowly, and that's one of the sort of core tenants of the B Corp movement is the whole idea of interdependency. You know, we are all interconnected. And even on a, you know, sort of atomic level, you know, we're all made from stardust.

[00:16:43] And we all came from the Big Bang. We're all connected. So to say that you are not connected to everyone else on the planet and what you do doesn't impact or affect anyone else is pretty dumb

[00:16:53] James Gill: at best. Totally. No, totally. I yeah, I, I, I totally agree. I, I think I think, touching back on some of the earlier, earlier stuff you were saying as well, I think just from our own perspective of going through the B Corp process, I think we've found it's been this incredibly eye opening assessment to do, and I was just wondering for your business, Tim, Aside from the wonderful societal going back to the origins of business, going back to, aside from that, from a business perspective, how, how have you seen it benefit?

[00:17:29] And especially, I guess I'm asking that question in terms of like, in any business, there's always someone who's pushed, there's usually someone pushing for B Corp, but then there's also Often people that are like, really, we're, you know, do we really have time for this? Do we really have money for this?

[00:17:44] Should we? So how, how do you, yeah, it'd be good to hear a little bit more about that as well. I

[00:17:49] Time Jones: think, I mean, there are certain industry sectors that if you're not doing B Corp, it's going to be table stakes. in the very near future. So if you are a FMCG, if you're a fast moving consumer good products, I think it's about 40 percent of B Corp, 40 percent of the total B Corp world comes in that consumer good sector.

[00:18:09] James Gill: So

[00:18:10] Time Jones: pretty soon, if you're, yeah, cosmetics, food, beverage, anything that you're seeing in a supermarket, if you're not thinking about B Corp pretty soon, the majority of your competitors probably will be. So all of a sudden it's not going to be, Oh, how aspirational, look at this brand, they're a B Corp. It's going to be, what are you guys doing?

[00:18:25] That means you can't, you Be a

[00:18:26] James Gill: B Corp. So.

[00:18:28] Time Jones: So definitely watch out in those sectors. So, but beyond that there's definitely, and again, there's evidence and data to back this up. So, employee retention and attraction. Increasingly, you know, the generation's coming through, they want to have more meaning, more purpose in the work that they do, and they want it to be true.

[00:18:42] They don't want to see some meaningless, vacuous values, you know, list of some values on the wall that are compromised at the first opportunity to make more money. They want to know that you, that you can prove your purpose and, and BCOP can do that for you. Like I say, customers, particularly in that FMCG sector, but again, more broadly, there are more, more conscious consumers who are more willing to support brands that can prove that they're doing good.

[00:19:02] We're definitely seeing regulatory pressures. So at the big end of town, you know, listed companies, pretty much in most developed markets around the world are now having to do at least mandatory reporting on environmental performance. And so if you are in the supply chain of a big company, it's not going to be long before someone in that company is calling somebody in your company is a good guy.

[00:19:22] So James, I noticed that we've spent a thousand dollars with you or a thousand pounds with you. I'd like to know what your environmental footprint is, please. Oh, and while you're at it, what social stuff are you doing? So we're definitely seeing that, that sort of regulatory, which I guess you could also sort of regular regulatory stroke supply chain pressure.

[00:19:37] So I'd say supply chain pressure probably split that out slightly differently because we also see there's a bunch of medium sized companies who are now B Corps, who are now, you know, maybe looking at recertification and looking at their supply chain to go, well, hang on a minute. But there's some points here, you know, at least getting some knowledge of our supply chain.

[00:19:54] We're going to get some more points. But if we can have more B Corps in our supply chain, or at least have some companies that have got third party certification, whether it's like FSC paper or something, or fair trade or organic certified, like that's going to help the mothership. So we definitely still, you know, Like, you know, a lot of these tails wagging multiple dogs where they're now having, you know, they've gone through B Corp themselves and having that conversation. And then I'd say the, the other sector or the other, the other pressure would be the financial sector. We're seeing banks globally, again, increasingly, they're, they're coming under pressure from where they get their money from to be able to say, yeah, we don't have any money being invested with, you know, existentially risky industries, definitely.

[00:20:32] But they, they now want to know what the sort of middle ground of people are doing who aren't necessarily. evil doing bad things, but they're not overtly, you know, good in a, you know, it's just like a mum and dad business that's just doing its thing. So yeah, there's, there's increasing spotlight on all of those.

[00:20:46] And so, you know, All of those. I mean, one example, we had a client here, and the day after they certified, they got about 6, 000 worth of free media in the local, local media, and their bank rang them and said, Oh, I see that you're a B Corp now. Well, we have a sustainable loan that B Corp's eligible for, which is actually the same loan that you've already got with us, so we 30k.

[00:21:09] So in 12 hours, they got back the cost of their certification and a fee, probably, you know, twice over in 12 hours. So there's, there's some, you know, really, really good anecdotal cases like that. But again, the evidence is there that all those groups now are looking at every business. The key is they want you to prove what you're doing, you know, is what you say, you know, what you're saying that you're doing.

[00:21:31] And that's where B Corp typically is winning out because there's a bunch of certifications you can look at. Some people might be really interested in more environmental certifications. Some people might go, look, we want to be child labor free or living wage certified or, or whatever. But. Why B Corp is winning out, I think, across all of these areas is because it's globally recognized.

[00:21:49] It's social and environmental performance and it's independently verified. And there's no other framework that offers all of that, you

[00:21:56] Chris W: know,

[00:21:57] Time Jones: because you might be living, you could be living wage certified here in New Zealand. I don't, if you're selling that into the UK, well, who cares? Well, likewise, if you've got a, if you've got a UK certification, well, does that mean anything in America?

[00:22:09] Well, probably not. So I mean, there has been some market research done recently. Brand recognition, I think in the States was around about the 30 percent mark. And I think in, in the UK, it's quite high as well. So it is a bit of a chicken and egg, but the more companies that are certifying and are becoming better at telling the story, which is what obviously you can help people with.

[00:22:28] You know, we're building up, you know, both sides of the ledger, you know, more people are aware of B Corp, more people want to buy it, more pressure on companies. Okay, we should probably look at this B Corp things if we want to stay competitive. Okay, well, we're now we're certified, let's tell the story.

[00:22:40] And so it kind of it's building on each other. So it's it's quite exciting time.

[00:22:45] James Gill: Absolutely. I mean, it definitely feels like some of the stuff you're saying before The sort of the ripple effect of one B Corp alone can be, can be huge. But, but seeing, seeing the, the, to continue the water analogy, the rising tide of of, of all of the times you're seeing that B logo.

[00:23:07] And I mean, in London, I'm seeing the the B Corp logo on the side of buses for ads. It's like, at the very least, people are going to start asking, what does that mean? Or just seeing it. And the more they see it, I mean, how many times do you have to see it before you start thinking, what is that? And looking at it.

[00:23:22] So it's and sometimes I think, is it just because I'm obsessed with this, with this movement in this world? But I, I mean, I genuinely do believe I'm seeing it more and more like the coffee shop I go into having a big B logo on it. Like these things. They all add up. I'm absolutely convinced of that.

[00:23:39] Time Jones: Well, and in the UK cause March was B Corp month and Waitrose and WHSmith do for the last few years have done big in store activations, you know, with End of Isle. Yeah. Hey, these brands will, these are all B Corp brands. So there's definitely, you know, more awareness coming through. And I think, like I say, particularly the UK, there's so many yeah, if you, if you haven't even, you know, just go and have a look at it.

[00:24:01] You might, you might be pleasantly surprised at what it's asking you. And, and I mean, the other thing that we quite often see is people actually getting operational savings as well. Once they start going through the assessment and they go, hang on a minute, what, why, why have we been buying this thing? Or hang on, actually, what, what, where do we get that from?

[00:24:15] Is it, can we not find a local, a more local supplier for that? Oh, okay. Well, look, we've just shaped, you know, we've got an environmental win from getting something From closer. So we're not shipping it and, you know, maybe we're saving some money by using a local supply around the corner who we can build a better relationship with, who might then also introduce us to 10 of their other customers.

[00:24:33] So there's lots of these little micro wins as well, that you, you know, you can't almost put a price on, but.

[00:24:39] James Gill: Absolutely. I mean, it, it feels like. for us at least it's really like blown the dust off of lots of bits of the business that we we probably didn't previously have a reason to necessarily revisit and yeah i think it's just been had so many ramifications which have been great i am conscious of time i feel like we're whizzing through our our half hour tim but i i do i

[00:25:00] Time Jones: can stay for a bit longer if you need to okay

[00:25:02] James Gill: okay i i i that would be amazing i i was gonna say One of the things you wanted to talk about, which was companies getting better at telling, telling a story about what they're doing and marketing what they're doing, right?

[00:25:13] Yeah, I thought this would be pertinent

[00:25:15] Time Jones: for what, you know, EcoSense, all of that. Sure, yeah. The overarching thing that we see, I think companies who, the sort of the advance guard of companies that are doing B Corp and doing business for good are typically attracted to it for all the very right reasons.

[00:25:31] It's because we genuinely believe in it. We, we probably already behaving like this. We just want to, you know, Put a ring on it, make it official and prove that we have been doing it. And I guess, you know, there's been some really well documented cases of greenwashing where people make claims about performance or standards or what they're doing and that it's not true.

[00:25:49] But equally, and possibly just as if not more damaging is greenhushing, where what we tend to find is if people who are doing good are typically more humble, perhaps than their less do good contemporaries. And so they're less likely to want to tell the story of the good that they're doing. But in a world that's still Generally starved of good news, where we know that increasingly consumers want to support the brand, you know, it's a small thing that a consumer can do is to go and support a brand that's at least not destroying the planet or possibly, you know, actually trying to make the planet or people better.

[00:26:20] So people want to connect to those brands and they want to connect to them in an authentic way. In general. B Corps globally are just really average at telling that story. And so I think, you know, that's why when, when we discovered EcoSend, we were like, this is so cool. Like we, I want to tell your story to all the B Corps that we work with, because it's just a cool story.

[00:26:38] It's like, well, why wouldn't you use EcoSend instead of, you know, the others who I won't name in case we get sued, maybe, or whatever. I don't know how it works. But you know what I mean? It's like, why wouldn't you, you know, you're a, you're a bunch of cool, cool people trying to do the right thing. You're about to be a B Corp.

[00:26:51] Why wouldn't, why wouldn't I want to support you and tell your story? But I think, yeah, in general, people just. I think the underlying fear is we're not perfect. You know, we may be at the minute, you know, 200 points is what the B Corp assessment is scored out of. There's no 200 point B Corp. Well, exactly.

[00:27:06] There's no 200 point B Corp. There is no perfect company. So don't be, don't be afraid about telling the story of the good that you are doing, but just be transparent with where you aim to be better. And I think if you have that transparent conversation and say, look, we want to be better. If you, if you think you can help us solve that, come and meet us.

[00:27:23] We'll host you for the day. We'll do a workshop with you. Okay. Like we want to, and that's why we call our coaching program, be better. It's like use the B Corp framework to just be a better business. Don't be perfect because quite often, and in all honesty, you, you, no one could be perfect overnight because the cost that it would take you to be perfect would probably destroy your business overnight.

[00:27:42] And that's not helped anyone, has it? So it's better that you look at the incremental impact that you can do. But as you're going on that journey, keep telling the story, keep bringing, bring people with you. And I just think it's a massive missed opportunity.

[00:27:54] James Gill: Absolutely, I couldn't agree more, Tim. I mean, the concept of green hushing has come up quite a few times on this podcast.

[00:28:01] And actually, it's kind of a bit, like, inception level, because we, a big reason we started the Ecosend podcast was for exactly this reason. We felt we knew So little at the start of our journey. And we were, we were genuinely so fearful that we didn't know enough that we almost just did it. We're like, let's just stay clear of that topic.

[00:28:21] Cause we're definitely not experts, but I, I'm so glad, you know, you sort of have to kind of step onto the. The moving vehicle, I guess, and like totally. You know, just give it, you're gonna make some mistakes, but I think it's about, you know, you, you, you make mistakes, you learn from them, and that's how you grow.

[00:28:38] That's how you develop hundred. That's how you hundred percent you get better.

[00:28:41] Time Jones: Yeah. I remember this, watching a documentary about Neil Young ages ago shows you how middle age I am. I like Neil Young. I know , I'm not heads

[00:28:48] James Gill: to judge.

[00:28:48] Time Jones: I like, I like Neil Young and, and, and American Pale l I'm officially middle aged but it's a documentary about how, you know, how, because he, he wasn't historically a singer. And they were sort of going through his career and got to the point where he first started singing. And I think it was the lead singer in the band he was in did turn up or something along those lines. And to butcher, butcher the quote, you know, badly, he basically said, I just thought I'm going to grab the microphone and start shouting in it.

[00:29:14] And I think that's such a good analogy just for, just give it a go. You know, he's now what a multi million, you know, stellar recording artist who, if he hadn't just given it a go, he wouldn't have done that. But I think, and also on that, I was talking to a B Corp in the States the other day. And, you know, yes, there are potential unintended consequences.

[00:29:33] So you end up. You know, you think you're doing good, but actually some bad happens at the same time. That's always a risk. But if you don't, you know, coming back to telling the story, which is limited risk, it's not like you're really going to probably hurt other people. You, you won't ever really know the unintended consequences until you give the thing a go.

[00:29:51] And exactly what you said. It's like, just give it a go. You know, you're unlikely to kill someone, which is really, that's like the worst thing You know, of all worst outcomes, that's probably not going to happen. So anything below that, you're doing all right. And like you say, as long as you take on any learnings and you

[00:30:05] James Gill: adjust and you grow from it, you know, give it a go.

[00:30:08] Always, always be learning. Yeah. On the topic of learning, and I know we're, we're, we've got to wrap the show shortly to advice. Do you have any advice for others on this journey?

[00:30:21] Time Jones: Yeah, I think just give it a go. You know, we, we work with so many people who, Like B Corp is, it's a high standard, but if you are, if you are of the mindset and intent that you want to do good with your business, it's very achievable because you will make the changes that you need to, to get across the threshold because, and quite often it's, it's gains, you know, it's that sort of 1 percent gains, you know, little updates.

[00:30:44] Yeah. Okay. Actually we couldn't, I didn't know that that policy was even a thing. Now that I know that that's a thing. Sure. I don't mind. I don't mind having it. Let's put that in. Great. Let's get it done. Yeah, so yeah, I like my skiing which is why I've got my skis in the corner here because it's about to be the ski season here in New Zealand and if anyone else is a big ski fan they'll know of the Warren Miller movies and at the end of every, so Warren Miller was this amazing ski videographer and he would make this annual Warren Miller movie where they take people all over the world and have a mixture of like crazy trick shots, you know down you know off piste skiing with some resort stuff and just it's just like a real Nice 90 minute movie to get you in the mood for the ski season, but at the end of every movie He always said and don't forget if you don't do it this year You'll be one year older when you do and for me That's just like the same with B Corp if you if you don't just go and log on to the free assessment This week and just go and have a look around it You'll probably be a year older when you next to it and there'll be ten more of your competitors that have done it and there'll Be more customers ringing you saying hey, why What's your social performance like?

[00:31:42] And you'll have lost the best talent. So it's like, just kind of, it's free to go and have a look at it. What, like literally, what have you got to lose? Nothing.

[00:31:50] James Gill: How, how can you say no to that? How can you say no to that? That's, I'm going to check out these movies too. I'm not much of a skier, but I'm going to check these out.

[00:31:58] They're normally pretty good.

[00:31:58] Time Jones: You don't have to be much of a skier. They're normally pretty tongue in cheek, bit of comedy. Yeah. Sounds like

[00:32:03] James Gill: some good life advice in there too. He nailed that one. Tim, thank you so much. It's been an absolute, honestly, what a, what a show. What a show. So I, I hugely appreciate you spending time with me this morning or this afternoon, this evening and I just want to make sure if anyone has been inspired to go do some stuff after this.

[00:32:25] Where, where can they find you? Where can they keep in touch with you?

[00:32:28] Time Jones: Yep so my website is just growgood. co, so growgoodco. Yeah. I'm pretty prolific on LinkedIn, is where I mainly hang out. If you just search Tim Jones, that beak or bloke on LinkedIn, I'm pretty sure. That beak or bloke. Tim Jones, that beak or bloke on LinkedIn.

[00:32:40] I'm happy if you want, I've got a an ebook where I'm happy to give a link to that. Which basically is like a real summary of the, it's literally, it's called, there are some pretty good cheesy jokes in the B Corp community. So this, my ebook is called to be or not to be the what, why and how of B Corp.

[00:32:55] So if there are people who are needing to sort of sell B Corp to their business partner, colleague, boss, whatever, there's all the data and the evidence is, is sort of in there as well as a bit of background as to where B Corp came from. So yeah, I'm more than happy to give, give you access to that to share with your listeners.

[00:33:10] James Gill: Brilliant. And, and does that come in Welsh or just English? No, I probably should do. Yeah, I should probably try and get a Welsh translation.

[00:33:15] Time Jones: I like it. I like where you're going. I'll make a note of that right now.

[00:33:19] James Gill: Amazing, Tim. Thank you. Apparently,

[00:33:20] Time Jones: B Corp in Wales is picking up. Apparently, they've got quite a bit of a I would imagine it is, yeah.

[00:33:24] So yeah, I need to connect in with them.

[00:33:26] James Gill: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Tim, for joining me on the show today. It's been a pleasure. We'll make sure we have all those links to the show notes as well, so you can go find Tim as, as you, as you need to. So thank you also everyone for watching and listening and we will catch you next time.

[00:33:41] Cheers.