The EcoSend Podcast

S6E9
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[00:00:00] Chris W: Welcome to the EcoSend podcast. Be inspired, educated, and entertained by the world's most ambitious leaders putting climate at the top of their agenda.

[00:00:16] James Gill: Welcome to another episode of the EcoSend podcast. I'm your host, James, and I'm thrilled to be joined today by Oliver Dean. Oli is the founder of The Good Net, and I'm very excited to be chatting to Oli today because Oli's had a ton of experience working with some huge companies in the media industry, working with one of the biggest companies in the space, Global, for many, many years.

[00:00:41] Oli boldly left Global to start The Good Net a couple of years ago, and we're going to be talking all about marketing, advertising, and sustainability today. I'm Oli. How are you doing? I'm good. Thanks, James. Thanks for having me on awesome. Yeah, pleasure. Pleasure. I'm so excited to talk about this today because I'm sure many people listening will be like marketing advertising.

[00:01:06] Surely that's the enemy of sustainability. And so we're going to unpack some of this. We're going to hear your side of the story and hear more about what you're doing to change this space. So I'm very keen to dig in. But first, it would be great to hear in your own words, like what you're up to at the moment and and your journey into running the good net.

[00:01:26] Ollie Deane: Sure, sure. So as you said, I'm the founder of the good net. We call ourselves an ethical intelligence company, and that means that we focus on helping advertisers or brands achieve advertising and ESG results. So I can get into a bit of that in a second. But in terms of my, my journey in my journey since they actually started quite young, I grew up by the sea in a beach town in Ireland.

[00:01:47] Love to surf as a kid and I was involved in a community that when you grow up by the beach, you have a real relationship with. nature, the world around you, the health of the oceans. You know, this is a town that survived on fishing and, and, and people spent loads of time in, in, in water. And I've just always been interested in it right since I was a child.

[00:02:09] And that interest was largely something that was just my own in my own lifestyle. But as I started to forge a career in advertising, I found myself constantly coming back to, to, to that. And then ultimately, I think a lot of this for me came to a head in 2020 when you. Think about that as a year, the UN climate report out, COVID, Black Lives Matter, a lot happened in that year that made me question my overall personal impact in the world whether it was, whether I was contributing to being a force for good from a sustainability point of view, but also from a social equality point of view, from a health point of view, and started to look at business ideas where I could use my skills in advertising to to, to be a positive influence in the world.

[00:02:58] Came up with the idea for the good net alongside a good friend of mine who was working with me at the time. We spoke to a couple of investors. They said this is a great idea. We'll put some money in. Was it quite as easy as that? But it was, it was that's the summary of it. And then we raised just over a million pounds of angel investment, and then took the terrifying decision to quit our day jobs and big corporate companies to start our own company.

[00:03:22] James Gill: And here we are. Amazing. And so in your own words, then, Ollie, so what is, what is the good net doing? Like what, what is the whole, What is the product, the service, the offering?

[00:03:34] Ollie Deane: Yeah, so, so, so, as I said, we're, we're an ethical intelligence company. And that means that we are in the business of helping advertisers achieve both campaign performance and ESG results.

[00:03:47] So what our product actually is, is it's a data platform that enables us to measure media. Against a variety of different sustainability metrics. So the platform is called GoodIQ and it can take a holistic view of a given website or a CTV channel or or any other media property that somebody might spend their advertising money on, and it looks at it through a variety of different lens from the content it produces, from the way they operate at a corporate level, from its ownership, from the carbon emissions or the, you know, That's used in the in actually delivering ads onto their system.

[00:04:22] It takes a completely holistic view of how sustainable or ethical this particular media property is against a range of different ESG metrics, whether that's an equality green responsible consumption production, anything that relates back to any of the UN sustainable development goals. So the idea being, if you were an advertiser, like Microsoft, for example, and you're spending.

[00:04:47] Large sums of money on, on advertising. Our tool can help you understand whether that ad spend is ultimately going towards media partners that are sustainable or a positive net good for society or the planet. The reason we talk about Delivering advertising ESG results is because essentially what we're in the business of doing is, is either supplying data or supplying advertising inventory to these partners to enable them not just to hit their campaign outcome, but also to ensure that they have some tangible metrics to show how their marketing spend is contributing towards their bigger, broader ESG goals.

[00:05:24] James Gill: That makes a ton of sense. That is a great summary. So yeah, essentially for a business that wants to Spend money on advertising online rather than just looking at how many impressions am I going to get? How many sales am I going to get? You're helping finally get visibility into What that money is going to what what is that business up to?

[00:05:46] Whether that money is being spent on Good businesses or businesses trying to do good or You They're not so good businesses, you know,

[00:05:54] Ollie Deane: exactly. And, and, and the kind of our stand back moment in this and the whole reason why we launched this company was as you've quite rightly said, media and advertising often is met with quite an initial negative reaction when it comes to sustainability.

[00:06:10] Because after all, advertising is the business of encouraging people to buy stuff that they don't need many of the time. Our fundamental belief is media and advertising has the ability to change the world in a way that no other industry can. And that's because it can either positively or negatively influence the behavior of billions of people all over the world.

[00:06:34] And it can do that either through advertising being a vehicle that is funding more ethical brands and products, whether that's encouraging people to switch to greener energy or encouraging people to take the train on their next holiday instead of a plane or. Go plan based once a week or whatever type of sustainable behavior that is a net positive good in the world.

[00:06:53] And just to be clear, that's not everybody become an absolute ultra purists. That's people making small decisions in certain parts of their life. One day a week or two days a week to be, live a more ethical, inclusive, sustainable lifestyle. The other part of it is advertising can fund content that can positively or negatively influence people.

[00:07:13] And that's down to whether it can accurately report on things like climate crisis. So whether it can accurately, accurately report on an equality issue. Or whether it actually reports in a health and well being issue. All of these things fall under the banner of the UN Sustainable Development Goals and ultimately media can be a force for negative good or positive good in terms of, of that.

[00:07:36] So therefore we were thinking, well, it'd be great to have a company who created a tool that enabled advertisers. To fundamentally understand whether the millions of pounds they spend on advertising is having a positive or negative effect on the world, whether it's contributing to some of their bigger corporate ESG goals, or, or, or even if you wouldn't put it so corporately contributing towards a greener, healthier, fairer world and then whether they could use that tool to ensure that their Ad spend is actually contributing to media owners or media providers who are doing all of the relevant responsible things towards making our world more safer, greener, healthier and fairer.

[00:08:20] James Gill: Got it. Now that's, it's really fascinating to hear you summarize it like that. So, so essentially, yeah, you're, you're helping brands channel their money into ultimately making, making the world a lot better through advertising through a number of factors there It's really interesting to hear, yeah, the sort of the knock on effect there, you were summarizing of the, the advertising fueling businesses that can be, can be producing better content, more helpful content, more educational content.

[00:08:49] We've spoken on this podcast quite a bit about the kind of influence businesses can have, you know, and, and what marketing can do. It's, it's not just about buying more stuff, it's buying better stuff. It's buying making more informed buying decisions. And, One business can impact potentially millions, tens of millions, hundreds of millions of consumers to make slightly, slightly better decisions.

[00:09:13] Yeah, it's, it's really interesting to hear. You know, your very positive take on the world of marketing and advertising, which, you know, is, is not often one of that's discussed enough, I, I think. So I, I guess do you find there is a challenge working with brands who, that like, I guess most brands care about whether they are going to sell more stuff or if their ads are going to perform well.

[00:09:39] Like, how do you measure the campaigns in terms of their success? Like, how do you determine success? Is it one or the other? Or is it some combination? Yeah.

[00:09:51] Ollie Deane: Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. So there's two parts to that question. So let's take the first part first. How do you, how do you put some, specific metrics on what we've talked about.

[00:10:04] It's, you can't just say this website's good for the world. This website's bad for the world. And, and our position is, is you have to, if you were to look at, let's say you're an advertiser and you're spending money on websites on the open web you have to take a completely holistic view of why. Of whether that website is contributing towards any one of the UN Sustainable Development Goals.

[00:10:29] And they are, are, everything in our framework kind of comes back to them. So if you're putting an ad on a website, we essentially think that you need to look at three things. And our GoodIQ tool does that. Number one, the GoodIQ tool looks at content of the website. And what it does, is it has a tool that can analyze content on websites and it can map them to UN Sustainable Development Goals.

[00:10:52] So a really blunt example might be if you've got a particular website and it's writing about health and well being, that can get mapped to UNSDG 3 health and well being. Same as if you're writing about championing the rights of an underrepresented minority group, whether it's a fashion magazine that's championing the rights of minority designers, that can get mapped to At UNSDG, reducing inequalities.

[00:11:16] So there's a way in which we can very simply map content for thousands and thousands of websites back to that. So that's content. The second one is we look at the advertising product, and that is looking at things like the ad fraud, the wastage, the carbon that is used in actually delivering ads onto those sites.

[00:11:34] We do that in line with a global media sustainability framework, which is a sort of a framework everybody's getting behind in our industry to consistently measure things like carbon emissions in delivering ads onto sites. And then finally, we're looking at the, what we call the corporate, so the ownership of that site.

[00:11:53] And does that owner of that site operate in a responsible way? Do they have science based targets transparent ESG policies, inclusivity at every level of their organization? What you tend to find is, is all of those three areas, so content, corporate, and advertising, all merge up and blend up into what we give as a holistic ethical media index score and what that is.

[00:12:18] Score that we give every ad funded part of digital media, a relative score on an index, whether they're above or below average. When you take all those things into account. So, some advertisers will go, well, great. I just want one really simple metric that I can start to plan my ad campaigns towards to ensuring I am ultimately putting my ad spend in, in in a responsible place.

[00:12:43] And then other advertisers really want to dig into specific metrics like that. So, other advertisers really care about funding minority owned media companies you know. Somebody like a Diageo, for example, has been really clear. It's on their website in clear text. They have committed a spend commitment of their marketing money to minority owned businesses.

[00:13:03] Another example might be a Mastercard, for example, that have been very clear. They want to reduce the carbon emissions of their all across their business and marketing is a part of it. So there's a variety of different brands that have different goals and what they will use our tool towards is to customize the metrics that they can get out of their digital ad spend as to whether they are hitting or achieving those goals.

[00:13:28] And it's not as simple as that's bad or that's good. It's about saying if you're spending anything from a thousand pounds up to a million pounds of digital marketing or spend on the internet, what's its contribution to your ASG goals? So you could say that 7 percent of your ad spend is going to minority owned media.

[00:13:47] 7 percent might not seem like a lot in a grand scheme of the world, but that is a relative contribution towards a target that you have. So that's the way in which it's all about providing tangible metrics where people can start to ensure whether their marketing spend is a contribution towards their ESG goals.

[00:14:05] The second part of that, which is a really important part that you touched on is, is yes, but what's this got to do with the performance of the campaign and you know, people will spend money. invest money into digital advertising or marketing or any form of marketing for that matter to achieve an outcome and that outcome will be increasing awareness of your brand or selling more of your product or any other metric that you would have in that space.

[00:14:32] When we are either delivering campaigns or are in our Software is being used to measure campaigns. We are always working towards that thing of delivering advertising and ESG results. So we're very aware that an advertising primary objective is to achieve its marketing or sales goal. And that will always be the primary thing that we're either.

[00:14:55] Executing a campaign towards or using our data to measure. What we very much see is all those ESG metrics I talked about are provided alongside that. And what we do do is we do a lot of relationship analysis between the relationship between the two. One of the struggles we have within our industry is that too many people view sustainability or responsible marketing practices as a tax and they view it as something that's going to harm your performance or something that you have to compromise and.

[00:15:24] Certainly over the last two and a half years, we've been seeing people saying, look, Ollie, we're in a cost of living crisis here. You know, it's a dog fight out there in my relative retail environment or whatever I'm that advertiser is, is, is, is trying to do. These sustainable media marketing practices are nice to have, or they're taxed, so they're going to harm my performance.

[00:15:45] They're going to make my media more expensive. Two years into this, having either executed or analyzed for on behalf of other people. Billions and billions of impressions that could be not further from the truth. We are seeing a really clear correlation that market ethical or sustainable marketing practices actually drive outcomes for advertisers.

[00:16:05] And if you think about it. The same things that will contribute towards a website getting a good ethical media index score, whether it's got quality journalism, where there's got a low advertising load per page, whether it's got a lean ad tech supply chain, which means the ads load quicker, the journalism draws people attention more means that they're more likely not to just continue scrolling through.

[00:16:31] They're more likely to watch the content. All of these things contribute towards both the more the better. Sustainable higher ethical ESG metrics, while also contributing towards greater ad performance. So, in all of the different advertisers we have worked with, we see that on average media that achieves higher scoring on the ethical media index, or in other words, against ESG metrics delivers on average, 14 percent greater ad performance.

[00:16:59] Increase in performance versus the media that doesn't and there might, might be a view of, of, of cost differential there, but broadly, when you convert this all back to a cost per acquisition or cost per clip cost per completed view, that correlation is very, very strong and very, very apparent and that's responsible or sustainable marketing practices do drive campaign performance rather than inhibited.

[00:17:25] James Gill: Wow, that's I my silence there was just basically because I was agreeing with so much of what you were saying that early and so much of that rings true to what you know what we've seen and what what I think I've found from a lot of other conversations on on the podcast is that this idea that our to be more sustainable to be more, to be Being more thoughtful about how ESG goals means to trade off profit and, and revenue is, is just totally, is, is usually totally a false, false trade off.

[00:17:58] Like, it is It is that doing, doing more, being more thoughtful, being more considerate, being more sustainable, focusing on how to improve things there. I haven't yet come across a situation where that, that does anything other than help improve the, the revenue and profit goals of, of the business. Like you mentioned like web design there and how aligned.

[00:18:21] Building a good website that is fast performing, that is sustainably minded, helps with conversion, all of those things apply to email, those things apply to our approach on advertising too, it's it's Yeah, reassuring to hear that continuing to ring true. I was also going to just touch on something you mentioned there around the, the measurement piece.

[00:18:43] And I guess there's that old adage that, you know, you can't, well, it's very hard to improve what you're not measuring. So I, I'm, I'm fascinated to understand more about the, the platform in that, I guess, right now, advertisers really are not given much insight at all into anything other than the, the ROI of their campaigns from a financial perspective.

[00:19:08] So it's, it's, I guess, for the first time, people are getting this whole other picture about this supply chain, essentially, of the digital marketing. And I think, before the podcast, you were you were basically saying that You know, it's often overlooked, like companies that sell physical products, they, they have a supply chain, they will go, they, the good companies or the companies that are really trying to, to make change will go and understand to the nth degree, like where their products are sourced and made.

[00:19:40] You're really trying to do that. From a digital marketing perspective, right?

[00:19:46] Ollie Deane: Yeah, yeah, you're right. And digital marketing is a supply chain. And if you go back to, it was, it was actually somebody who was planning and buying the media of Danone that said to me very early on when we launched the goodness and Danone, one of the, I think they are the largest world doing some great work in their space.

[00:20:02] But. When we were talking, she said, well, we just got to view advertising like another supply chain in the way we do our farmers. And I was like, well, that's quite interesting. And if you go on to Danone's website, or if you read about in the news and all of the different things that they have in place towards improving their supply chain with their farmers, whether it's a variety of different initiatives to, you know, improve their standard of living, educate them on material use, on making, ultimately making their products better.

[00:20:30] production better for the world you can understand how you can literally take that a similar approach and puts that into advertising. I think you're right is to date. A lot of sustainable professionals have often focused on the More physical aspect of manufacturing production distribution, because I think it's just human nature for us.

[00:20:53] And also, there's been a set of metrics in place to be able to measure sustainability across a variety of those areas. But I think now what we're starting to turn towards as a society and as an, as an industry is being more aware of. The sustainable footprint of that stuff. That's difficult to see. So advertising and marketing is one of them.

[00:21:15] Another very good example of that is AI. There has been a huge amount of people talking around the, the carbon footprint of AI and its effect on sustainability and some person who. Would be forgiven for the thing. Well, hang on a second. How does it? You can't see it. How does it even? And there's similar trends that are going on in advertising and the fact that people want to be able to, to, to view this and want to be able to understand the effect.

[00:21:45] Another point on that is, is I think there's a, A lot of what we talk to advertisers about is not fearing the metrics and not fearing understanding how your ad or marketing campaign measures up against a variety of different UN Sustainable Development Goals or your corporate metrics. Because to your point, you've got to start somewhere.

[00:22:09] You've got to know and, and and start somewhere. And, you know, even if you start to measure a metric and it's bad, 10 percent of your ad campaign supports one or more of the UN sustainable development goals. And that might feel really small. You still can now measure it and you can set yourself an incremental target to grow that by 2 percent next month or next quarter.

[00:22:32] And you know, the compound effect of that will start to see you a year from now make big gains. And I still think a lot of marketers are quite held back by things. I was at an event the other day and a very senior marketing lead at Spotify was saying that. Our industry in marketing and advertising is all about finding new things and experimenting and moving quickly and whether the way in which Our industry has embraced things like programmatic or the way it's embraced new metrics, like attention planning.

[00:23:04] But for some reason, there's this sort of fear around sustainability and doing new things. And there's a, there's a worry around testing new things for fear of, of getting it wrong. And often that is holding a lot of people back in, in doing this. And when we sit down with a lot of. Advertisers, the thing that we find ourselves continuously saying is not to let perfection get in the way of progress.

[00:23:32] And actually that the fact that you have both tools in place, like what you can the offering you have and then tools in place like ours that will help you either activate or measure your campaign just starting and and and getting a look at those metrics from the outset is a important first step. And, you know, a year from down the line, if you're starting to optimize and improve that by a couple of percent a quarter, you'll look back and you would have really come far and a lot of brands are doing it, an awful lot of brands are doing it.

[00:24:02] I think we were talking about before we press record, it tends to be in our experiences, the bigger brands and the bigger advertisers that either have more sophisticated approach to sustainability and other parts of their Organization have big well resource sustainability or ESG teams. And or finally have an eye on increasing levels of regulation and are very aware that as regulation, both new regulation comes in around the world, but also increasing regulation tightens and increases requirements is that.

[00:24:37] there is going to be a need to do this.

[00:24:39] James Gill: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I'm keen to dig into the regulation piece a little bit more, actually, Oli. I think just, just on one of the things you said there, though, around, um, around companies fearing the sustainability piece. I think that's a really interesting thing we've witnessed too.

[00:24:55] And, and, and actually really resonates for us. Like I remember when we were starting on the journey with EcoSend, we were actually really fearful of even touching on the world of sustainability and, and environmental, the environmental side of things when it came to digital because there was relatively little information out there and we were really fearful of saying the wrong things and we were aware of how little we knew.

[00:25:25] And I think there is this, still this big blocker for a lot of people that are not traditionally in the world of sustainability. They're not traditionally in They don't have a ESG related title in their company. There's so much fear around doing the wrong thing and kind of being accused of greenwashing or, or saying stuff without backing it up with enough meaning.

[00:25:47] And I think it's a big thing that we've kind of. It's come up a lot on this podcast. It's like green. I mean, I've heard it called green hushing. But it's also like, it's interesting how that it's not just green hushing from a public messaging perspective, but it's also like affecting decision making within companies within executive decision making.

[00:26:07] It's it's, it's kind of a fascinating topic. I think the only way to overcome that is more education, more more conversations, more Yeah, more more information out there and more clarity around the right choices that you can make or the good choices to make. It's, it's

[00:26:23] Ollie Deane: yeah, you're, you're totally right.

[00:26:26] And, and, and green hushing and green washing. Actually, I read a report, I can't remember the name of it recently. And it said the number of green claims in ads is reducing. And the reason it's reducing is because of say regulation or some very public recent examples of businesses being reprimanded by the ASA for making the wrong claims.

[00:26:52] And that's dropping and you're thinking, well, it's a good thing that the regulation is on these things and stopping greenwashing. Yeah. I always think, well, what do we learn from it? And I'm the sad geeks that actually reads through a lot of the cases. Most of these examples, maybe not most, quite a lot of the examples are often down to a lack of specificity in a claim or, and I would put that down to a lack of specificity in a metric.

[00:27:20] And, you know, there's, I, I, I remember a very famous one, it was for a washing powder. And it was I think it said tough on stains kind on the planet and it got wrapped because its term kind of the planet wasn't correctly substantiated and it wasn't substantiated enough. More and more I read into it, the more and more I was like, well, actually it's, it was kind for the planet because of it could be washed at a lower temperature.

[00:27:47] And there was less less plastic use in the production of the bottle from memory. And you think, well, actually there's some tangible robust metrics there that can, that can, that can push that claim. But when we sit down to people often I think where people find themselves on the wrong side of a green claim, not just in the ads that you put out into the world, but in generally in an internal business practice is often we have these big statements in our industries.

[00:28:12] Very, very guilty of big halo North Star statements. We obviously was got to come back to the specificity of how you're measuring that and what metrics you're putting in place and starts to do that first. And don't jump forward to what claim you could make. Start thinking simply about getting a framework in place by which you're unable to measure it, and then start to think about ways in which you can start to make those claims.

[00:28:38] James Gill: Sounds like pretty sensible, very good advice there Oli, I think, yeah. I know we are almost at time, Ollie, but I know just on the, on the final topic, I know looking forward into the future, I know regulation is something on your mind. And perhaps in a in a good way it would be good to hear your thoughts on that.

[00:28:56] Yeah, I

[00:28:57] Ollie Deane: think so So there's there's a variety of different regulatory changes happening around the world. We're a global business so we have to be mindful of all of them But probably the one closest to home here in the uk is the csrd the global. Sustainability regulation directive and essentially what that is, is it's EU regulation that has been around a while, but what's happening is that every year it's increasing in its in two ways.

[00:29:23] January 1st of 25, it increases the volume of businesses. So it's threshold reduces. So now a whole load of new businesses are going to need to report on it is number one. And then the second part of it, it's increasing in the level of granularity of metrics that people need to. To, to report on and essentially there's a suite of metrics in which a whole lot of businesses will have to report on for anybody who thinks that with Britain being out of the EU, it still applies to EU businesses that are subsidiaries or have subsidiaries in the EU or whether they do business in the, so it's a bit like GDPR in the sense of it's not quite as simple as we are.

[00:30:01] We are UK only business. I'm sorry, we're UK business, so we don't have to report, but so it is going to affect a large amount of businesses based in the UK. And essentially, it's going to increase the level of granularity. Now, if you think about it, marketing spend accounts for between 6 and 10 percent of turnover for the average large company.

[00:30:22] Gartner, I think, is the source on that. And right now, that has largely been a total blind spot, or has been given a free pass with regards to reporting on any form of ESG metric. And that's not going to last forever. And as while advertising or marketing or media isn't specifically called out in the regulation that I'm aware of, certainly it's a substantial material part of a company's footprint that it's going to have to start to be taken into account.

[00:30:50] We think this is an opportunity for marketing. And I think a lot of ESG professionals are understanding this. Gripping with this concept of materiality or impact materiality is term that, that, that companies report on. And essentially what that is, is it's what's the material impact your company has on the world, positively or negatively in the company, in the, in the products you produce, products you put out into the world.

[00:31:18] And we're very much of the belief that marketing. And media and advertising is a significant part that if you're an advertiser, and you're putting a 50 million or even 5 million of marketing spend out into the world, and that's going into a supply chain that's going towards a variety of different media channels.

[00:31:36] That is a material impact on the world, positively or negatively. And that needs to all be taken into consideration. So what we are expecting to see out of regulation in the coming years is greater presence of marketing and advertising being considered in reporting and a more of a presence towards of, of, of specific metrics being taken from marketing and advertising and showing their relative contributions to other big ESG goals and targets and metrics that people have in place.

[00:32:14] And we're, you're already seeing it start to pop up in quite a lot of ESG reports right now. We just think that with the tightening of, of, of, of regulation in the coming years, not just in Europe and further afield, that this is going to become a significant thing. And if you think about it, if you are a professional in another part of an industry, whether it's production and manufacturing or distribution, you would have, this would have been part of your role for a while.

[00:32:42] Well from a CMO or, or, or a marketer, any other marketer or seniority for that matter, it's largely not been, but when you're in charge of such a significant part of a company's turnover and therefore their footprint that's surely going to

[00:32:56] James Gill: change. Yeah, absolutely. Food for thought for many people listening to this podcast, perhaps many, I mean, I know a lot of people listening to this podcast already on the, on the right path here, but I think it's, it's going to be interesting to see how that, that develops.

[00:33:10] I know, I know before we were talking about sort of, the carrot and stick approach and the regulation is an important part of encouraging those businesses that are just not quite on the cutting edge of this to, to get their acts together. It's hopefully going to see a wave of change. and positive, positive impact over the coming years.

[00:33:29] Which I think is quite a nice note to finish on. Ollie, what do you think? I agree. I agree.

[00:33:34] Ollie Deane: It's all for the good. It's all for the better.

[00:33:36] James Gill: Absolutely. Ollie, thank you so much for the episode today. This has been just absolutely wonderful, incredibly insightful and inspiring. I, I'm assuming many people listening will want to go find out more about what you're up to and, and the business.

[00:33:55] So I take it they can, can find you on LinkedIn and

[00:33:59] Ollie Deane: Yeah, so they can find me on LinkedIn Oliver Dean, that's DE. And the good nets are on LinkedIn. And then also we are we are the good net dot com. Amazing, amazing link url. That's, we are the good net.com.

[00:34:13] James Gill: Amazing. No, we'll, we'll link to both of those in the notes and and make sure everyone checks you out.

[00:34:18] Sorry. Fire alarm. That's a good, that's a good chance to, to go. So thank you so much Ali for a wonderful show. And thank you everyone for listening. If you've enjoyed today's show, please do. Tell your friends, your family, your colleagues, everyone about it. We want more and more people to be hearing about Ollie's good work.

[00:34:35] And hopefully it's a really helpful episode for many of you listening. So thank you, Ollie. Thank you for listening as well to everyone who's tuned in and we'll see you next time. Thank you all. Thanks, James.