S7E4 'Building Digital Products using Eco-Design', with Creek & Pine 🫶
Hi there. Welcome to another episode of the EcoSend podcast. I'm thrilled to be back, and, I'm your host, James. And today, I am joined by Martina and Martina, two Martinas from the, agency called Creek and Pine. I'm very excited today because Martina and Martina both are very passionate about the world of digital sustainability, and this is a topic we love to talk about near and dear to our hearts at EcoSens.
James Gill:So I'm very excited to be speaking with you both. How are you doing today, Martina and Martina?
Martina Nemcic:Hi. This is Martina Nemcic. Thanks so much, Jill. Thank you for organizing this. It's a thrill, being on this podcast.
Martina Nemcic:I'm doing great, excited to be joining and hopefully share a lot of great information about our Awesome.
James Gill:And how about yourself I'm
Martina Dodo:also good and I'm glad to be here. And if you need something to differentiate between me and Martina, my surname is actually Jojo, it's pronounced like the toy. Jojo, yeah. Yeah. You can also call me that because it's funny and most of my friends actually call me that.
Martina Dodo:So you're welcome to use it.
James Gill:Jojo. Okay. I would that sounds like a very good idea. We've never had this challenge on the podcast before. It's the first time for everything, isn't there?
James Gill:So perhaps perhaps for you, Martina, tell me a little bit more about Creek and Pine and what you're up to.
Martina Nemcic:So Creek and Pine is a first creation digital agency with a purpose. We actually design and build digital products, mostly websites and apps that are based in, I would say ethically used data, but also based in principles of eco design. So, that's what we are trying to do. But it's a challenge since we are the first company in Croatia. It's not like in The UK where you have a lot of companies that do similar things.
Martina Nemcic:But in Croatia, we are the first ones. We're happy to be in that position. But at the same time, it is a challenge because you have raise awareness, work with companies, raise awareness in tech community as well. So this is all that we are trying to do at the same time. On one hand, educate and consult, and on one hand, design and build beautiful, accessible, high performance and low carbon digital products.
James Gill:Amazing. Yeah. And the Creek and Pine website itself is a great example of this. It's a really beautifully designed site, which abides by all of those principles. It's so great to see you living and breathing what you talk about.
James Gill:It's really, really cool. It is. And And so
Martina Nemcic:Just wanted to say
James Gill:No, sorry. Go ahead.
Martina Nemcic:No, no, no. Sorry. Sorry for jumping Yeah. Yeah. But when it comes to the website, we're actually proud to say that we've been nominated for the Creation Design Award.
Martina Nemcic:This is the first time that a website that was designed with eco principles in mind was nominated for that award. So we are very,
James Gill:very Wow. Congratulations.
Martina Nemcic:Thank you so much.
Martina Dodo:Then this Sorry, I just wanted to
James Gill:share Go ahead, Jojo.
Martina Dodo:I just wanted to share a little story about when we were brainstorming on how our website should look like. We actually talked about going completely minimalistic, just like strip it of everything to go for as little code as possible and stuff like that. And then we were actually stopped and said, okay, we're gonna make it look amazing, and we're gonna use all the design principles that are usually used, but then we're gonna build it sustainably, just to show that sustainable website design and development is not stripped of any aesthetics. So we are proud that our website is a showcase of our work as well.
Martina Nemcic:Yeah, because we are an animation to show, you know, that digital products such as websites and apps can be built to be better for the environment and still feature high quality design and have excellent performance. We actually know that software, when it's built with performance and sustainability in mind, is actually not only better for the business, but also for the people who are using that software and for the environment. So that's why we wanted to showcase that on our website as well.
James Gill:Yeah. Amazing. I I love this. I'm so I'm so keen to dig into the details on all of this. It's and it's wonderful to hear, like, the passion you both have.
James Gill:It's it's amazing. I'm keen to just make sure I understand. So Jojo, what's your role in Creek and Pine and how does that differ to what Martino does?
Martina Dodo:So I'm here as a lead developer. I'm a developer. I studied mathematics and computer science, and I got my first internship in an IT company, digital agency that builds digital products such as websites and web apps. So I specialized in that before, and then now my role is actually to lead the technical part, the development part of our company, and to ensure that it complies with our sustainability framework that we built, and we can also discuss later, stuff like So pretty much technical, but in a small company everyone does everything, we also
James Gill:Of course.
Martina Dodo:Our roles go many ways, so I sometimes also take care of like our socials and client talks and stuff like that. It's many, but I'm mostly a software Yeah,
James Gill:got it. That makes a lot of sense, thank you. And what about yourself, Martina? So what does your role entail?
Martina Nemcic:I'm here in tech by accident. I'm actually, I studied journalism.
James Gill:Oh, right.
Martina Nemcic:I started my career in communications, political communication and public relations, but then transitioned to digital marketing and later to tech about ten years ago. After working with corporations and agencies, I landed in the same company as Jojo. That's where we met a few years ago. And started talking, well, first working together, but then started talking more about digital sustainability. Well, I would say sustainability in general, because we're both very passionate about sustainable living in general and wanted to see how we can translate that passion to what we are doing.
Martina Nemcic:And we realized at some point about two and a half years ago that we are both interested in digital sustainability. And we started talking about that in our previous roles in our previous company, but that didn't really stick they were AI and sustainability doesn't really go hand in hand with AI perspective. So we decided, well, what the heck? Let's try and start our own company, start up our own agency and see if we can, you know, build products that will be better for the environment, but also start a company that will be, you know, better to us and maybe to the communities we are involved with. A lot of difference were involved in that decision when we were starting a company together.
Martina Nemcic:And of course, I don't want to forget other people who are in the company with us. Our co founder, Vedran, is actually someone who had a design studio before we even started as a company. And we decided to expand that design studio because he was already following some eco design principles before, especially focusing on human experience, ethical design, accessibility and efficiency. But then when we all decided to work together, we rebranded that studio that was called Supernormal to Creek and Pine, then added additional services such as development, digital strategy, and data science. Because in order to build a software that is sustainable, we feel it's important to plan for sustainability, to be conscious of that during all phases of the project planning, design and development.
Martina Nemcic:Because only eco design cannot result in a website that is low carbon. You have to think about it when you are developing it as well. So he realized that if he wants to build green products, products that are low carbon, he has to also make sure that the development follows that as well. So it made sense for all of us to connect and to work together to build, not only to talk about digital sustainability, but also to build products that are sustainable.
James Gill:Yeah, Absolutely. No. I I that ethos makes so much sense. And also, I must commend you on I think many people listening may not realize how hard it can be to go against the grain in the world of technology where so many people are talking about AI and to say, no. We're going to prioritize sustainability over AI.
James Gill:I think sometimes it's it's hard to imagine in the tech world the amount of focus on things like AI and how how just omnipresent that is. And so, yeah, to focus on sustainability, there can be at odds with that, I think is incredibly courageous. And so, yeah, incredible.
Martina Nemcic:Yeah, for saying that. But I feel that digital sustainability takes that into consideration as because it's not only about the responsible and conscious use of digital technologies to reduce the negative environmental impact, But it's also about establishing a balance between that technological advancement and innovation and environmental care.
Martina Dodo:Because we want
Martina Nemcic:to ensure that digital technologies contribute positively to a sustainable future. And we see how impactful technology is, and it can really do a lot of amazing and good things for the society in general. You just have to be more conscious about the consequences as well, because they are huge. Can say that not only that misconception about digital, it's not only in the general public, even the regulators are not even aware how much pollution is stemming from the digital. So we all have to make this shift to something more sustainable a reality in the area that we are working in.
James Gill:Absolutely. And I must ask, because I know we've been talking lot about digital sustainability, but one of the things I always like to understand from from guests is what what why you care about sustainability, full stop, because there's often been a journey there to caring about that. And so maybe Jojo, I'd I'd love to hear from your side. Like, now you're working in the world of digital sustainability, was there anything that you experienced or saw that really made you care about sustainability in the first place?
Martina Dodo:Well, yeah. Started like, first it started with my diet, as I mentioned before. Yes, I first started learning about impact of food industry on the environment and the animals, of course. But if we're talking about sustainability, then it's animals. So lot of years ago I shifted to vegetarian, then vegan diet, and when you enter that world, there's no going back.
Martina Dodo:Then I started exploring, it's not only enough not to eat animals, but also we have to take care of where does this food come. It can be like avocados that are coming from Mexico to Europe, is also not And then do we eat strawberries in the middle of winter? No, we don't, because they are also imported from tropical parts of our planet to Europe in the winters. That's where I started to explore that, and started changing my life towards it, and then it came with sustainable fashion. I mean it's not hard for young women to be overwhelmed with fashion fashion industry and the trends and keeping in touch in trend with everything.
Martina Dodo:And then I started to also to do my own research about that, about the influence of the fast fashion, of mass production of clothing items. So everything in my life was going in a sustainable way, and I had this major thing going on and stuff. Everything in my life, in my kitchen, in my bedroom, my bathroom and everything. And here I was working, and it was kind of separate, two separate And at some point it started to bother me a little bit, like I'm spending a lot of my day working, and is there any cause to it? Is there any purpose to it?
Martina Nemcic:Is it
Martina Dodo:just building some websites? And that was thinking about it, and thinking what I can do. But being a young woman in Croatia, and Croatia is known for its complicated bureaucracy, I wouldn't have encouraged myself to go into something of my own and to be an entrepreneur. At that time Martina and I, we already met each other and already talked about it. And when she came with the idea, was like, yeah.
Martina Dodo:I wanted to And yeah, if it wasn't for her and for her idea, I don't know what would I be doing right now. And where would it go? But I'm so happy that this
James Gill:Amazing. I love it. That that's it's always interesting to hear about the journey people go on, and that that really rings true for a lot of people, myself included, when you feel you're you're doing the right things in your personal life, but then work takes a large, large portion of many people's lives. And and to be doing the right thing there is is, I think, a crucial, crucial thing, isn't it? And and how about yourself, Martino?
James Gill:I know we we have obviously talked a lot about the work you're now doing with with Creek and Pine, but was there similar to Jojo? Was there certain events, certain things you were doing that led to caring more about sustainability?
Martina Nemcic:Well, know what? For me, I think it started in my childhood because I'm from the countryside. I think we're both from the countryside. And you know, in Croatia in the 90s, after the war, it was torn by war. The economic situation was pretty bad, So there was not a lot of resources and not a lot of direction, I would say, for people like us who wanted to maybe pursue some careers that are out of the ordinary for Croatia.
Martina Nemcic:I lived on the countryside. I lived on a farm. Living in the countryside had a lot of challenges then. I vividly remember a time when we didn't have enough water because there wasn't a public water system and are well dried up. So it's not wild wild West.
Martina Nemcic:It's in the middle of Europe in the 90s. So, you know, like twenty five-thirty years ago. So my family had to go to a nearby village to collect water or, you know, rely on or have firefighters deliver it. So that experience made me super conscious about water usage. I still whenever my husband doesn't close water in the kitchen, it drives me crazy.
Martina Nemcic:So, and I think when you live close to the land, you feel every change to the land. Is the reason why many people don't think about climate change. It's not tangible enough for them. They can't really grasp the full impact of climate change because they're not seeing the tremendous shifts in agriculture, how the landscape is changing. I'm not that old, but I remember what the landscape was I was And it's changed so So that's why I think I'm always trying to find ways to contribute to my community, because it is a small community.
Martina Nemcic:So besides co founding Creek and Pine, I also co founded, like thirteen years ago, a nonprofit for youth also in the countryside. And I'm also running an energy cooperative in the same community. So we are trying to
James Gill:Oh, wow!
Martina Nemcic:Yeah. So we're trying include as many people in the energy transition and fight energy poverty. One of the big challenges that we have. By the way, Creek and Pine, as a company, is registered on that farm.
James Gill:Oh wow!
Martina Nemcic:Yeah, so I hope we can grow, you know, and support the community even more through that company, because it's important for us to put our money in the communities we care for. That's why we didn't change that and moved it to the capital, although we're operating from the capital, but we're still registered on that farm and really want to support that community that way.
James Gill:Your roots are in the countryside still.
Martina Nemcic:They are. Yeah.
James Gill:That is so so cool to hear. I I it's great to hear that background. So I I'm really intrigued, and I know there may be many people listening or watching who, even though they might be listening to the EcoSend podcast, might not fully be aware of this concept of digital sustainability and, you know, even rewinding a few years ourselves, we were not really aware of the Internet being something that had a climate impact. We didn't really know about that. So maybe for some of those listeners who are new to this, like, the Internet pollutes, and and how does it pollute?
James Gill:Whoever whoever wants to answer.
Martina Dodo:Okay, so maybe because of the language. We always kind of emphasize that. In the digital world, we always use that something is on the cloud and it's a web and it's a network, but you cannot see it. And it's not something you're aware of, but it's actually the infrastructure of the Internet is huge and it needs so much energy. It's actually going to be next year.
Martina Dodo:Predictions say that the Internet will use 20% of the global energy, maybe even more because of the AI. So the Internet pollutes because it Internet needs a lot of energy, first of all, to run servers where everything is stored. They need a lot of energy to run, a lot of energy to be cooled down. And then also need, it also needs energy to transmit the data in the network, it needs energy to be shown in the displays, so it's the energy that devices use. And it also of course needs some energy and produces CO2 when the devices are built, so where the hardware is built, and also where the software is built, because you always need the power to develop stuff.
Martina Dodo:There's many points of energy usage, and then when you use energy, of course, the CO2 is produced. So that's kind of the physics behind of it.
James Gill:That's amazing.
Martina Nemcic:Yeah, so the digital sustainability then just encompasses those various practices that are aimed at reducing energy consumption. So not only minimizing electronic waste, which is something that probably comes to mind first, but also lowering the carbon footprint that is associated with all the digital activities that Gioja mentioned, such as data storage, internet use, software production. We really want to find ways in all those phases of digital product to minimize the energy use, meaning lower the carbon footprint. That's the whole idea. So you can measure the pollution by measuring how much energy the software needs to operate.
James Gill:Yeah. This makes so much sense. And thank you both for such great explanations for the whole concept. And so maybe for you, Martina, for those wondering, okay, I didn't realize this. How do I go about solving this?
James Gill:What do I do about it? How do you go about designing and building green or sustainable products on the web?
Martina Nemcic:For end users, it's really hard to think about digital sustainability because we can't put the pressure on them. Whenever they're opening a website, Oh my God, how much electricity is needed to open this website? Some experts really put the emphasis on that. But in today's world where everything is digitalized, you can't even choose whether you want to use AI or not, because it's embedded in almost everything we use today, it's hard and it's not really fair to put that responsibility on the end users. We think it's on us, on people who build, could design and build software, to think about that at the beginning.
Martina Nemcic:You know, when we plan and design and develop some software. So how we do it at Quick Compine? So we build either websites from scratch or redesign existing websites. Know, each day I think we found an information that 250,000 new websites is published online.
James Gill:Every day.
Martina Nemcic:Every day. It's crazy.
James Gill:There's 1,800,000,000
Martina Nemcic:websites online currently. So it's crazy how much energy all that data is requiring just to exist, just to operate. And then, you know, when you have websites that are really, really visited by millions of people, you can even grasp how much energy we need to run those websites. And by the way, that energy mostly comes from non renewable energy, so from coal. We are trying to promote renewables, so the data centers that run on renewable energy.
Martina Nemcic:That's one big part of digital sustainability. But to go back to your question, how we do it. So we first measure current digital emissions of a website. We use carbon calculators for that. We really love a website Carbon, for example, that was developed by Whole Grain Digital.
Martina Nemcic:That's one of the things we almost always use, because it's always great to see where your website stands currently in terms of energy consumption. So we first measure your current digital emissions, then identify all the areas for improvement when it comes to design and development, and shape some kind of optimization strategy that later results in digital that is more efficient, optimized for conversions and more environmentally responsible. Then we start the design and development phase. So we really, when we think about it, like during the planning phase, we always think about what type of element is going to be more energy efficient. If we see that one design element is more energy efficient than the other, and they both bring the same value to our client and to their customers, we will always choose the element that is more energy efficient because we want to prioritize minimal CO2 footprint.
Martina Nemcic:We cannot compromise on user experience and design, right? That's what we talked about at the beginning when we were talking about our website. If you start compromising on user experience or design, they're going to be like, Oh no, this is not for me. We want to be, you know, just want to have a website that is just as spectacular as the website of our competitors. So we have to think about that.
Martina Nemcic:And we also, when we develop the website, we make sure that it's optimized for performance, accessibility, for SEO. We really want to make it spectacularly fast, so it's super high performance. And then our clients can see the benefits of that approach. Because when we are building a website, we don't start with, it has to be sustainable. We start with, it has to be high performance and energy efficient.
Martina Nemcic:If it is high performance, then it's going to be energy efficient and then it's going to be sustainable, right? Then it's going to be when you run it in the website calculator or any other calculator for emissions of websites, you will see it on the scale that it has, for example, or A plus rating. Because just as physical products, digital products also have, since they consume energy, they can be put on a scale and you can put it on a scale and see how they are rated. And of course, we all want to buy, for example, a fridge that is A plus plus We don't want to buy a fridge that has F rating because we know that it consumes way more electricity, for example. And it's gonna it's going to be more expensive for us in the long run.
James Gill:Yeah. No. Absolutely. I I I think anyone listening to this thinking about their own website will definitely link to the website Cogman calculator. We we love the work Colgrain has done and calculator is just such a helpful way to find that.
Martina Dodo:I wanted to add, you asked how can somebody watching this be more aware of digital sustainability? So there is a way. We do put main responsibility into tech companies to make sustainable websites, and for companies that need websites to ask for sustainable websites. But the end users can also do some things. That being, for example, if you're streaming.
Martina Dodo:Streaming is a huge polluter. So if you have a habit of streaming something but not watching it and just having it talk in background, maybe you don't need to do it on your TV or you can download something, some noise and play it that way. Also for music, if you happen to listen to one album for a month, then just download that album and listen to it from your device, do not stream it. So there are some kind of tricks, and of course scrolling a little bit less, and just conscious use of the internet and your devices. It's not big improvement on the global scale, but every person can add up a little bit into the big scheme.
James Gill:So just be conscious about Great suggestions. I love those. Those are some some great ideas there. And, yeah, it just shows everyone can do. Even a little thing can still it still does add up.
James Gill:And especially when you think about the scale of the Internet, you know, what you were saying, Martin, about 250,000 websites being built every day. Like, the like, it it's it's hard to imagine the scale of the Internet. And and when you think about individuals just doing small things, enough people doing those things does start to have an an actual impact, which is which is exciting. One thing I wanted to touch on, I know we're we're already running over time, but I know at the start, think, Jojo, you mentioned something about this, you have a sustainability framework perhaps of some sort. I would love to just hear a little bit more about that.
James Gill:I was intrigued about what that is.
Martina Dodo:Yeah, we have this framework. We sometimes call it a framework, sometimes we call it methodology. But it mainly describes our steps, our approach to building websites. And Martina already described it in some way, when we said that we first measure. And then people tend to ask how do you measure it?
Martina Dodo:How can it be measured? So there is a whole physical or mathematical, however you like to call it, on how you can measure that. And it includes speed of the internet, and intensity of the power grid in your country. And so some smart guys or girls over there, they actually made a formula for that, and that formula explains how it's measured, how much CO2 is produced with each visit to a website. You can even go further and explain, just show how can some methods change this amount.
Martina Dodo:So your first visit to a website, the website needs to be loaded whole, like whole size needs to be loaded. But if you visited yeah. So there is this thing called cache, and you can cache you can set it up as a method when you're building a website. When somebody visits your website for the first time, everything gets stored. And so when it with that same person who visits that same website again, you can just call what's stored if it's not changed.
Martina Dodo:You don't need to call it again and again. Please, Matilde, take
James Gill:over. Amazing.
Martina Nemcic:Yeah, no worries. Well, this is the development part, but also when it comes to design, what's part of our methodology is to see, you know, we measure the impact of website, we want to see what happened, why is that website so poorly optimized? And why does it produce so much pollution? So we go over all pages within the website, all the elements and see what elements are the most energy inefficient and see what other elements we can use to replace those elements that are very, very energy inefficient. We want to share that with the community, so that's one big part of our mission and one big part of our framework, just to share that knowledge.
Martina Nemcic:We participate in the tech and open source community, both locally and globally. And we educate on that in the companies and in the tech sector, because we want to share that knowledge. We want to have everyone on board and just to make people who are in charge of those design and development decisions make aware of the internet pollution. Because as Martina said, it's a language problem. It's an awareness problem, but it's also a perspective and language problem, because it says, you know, it's all in the cloud.
Martina Nemcic:It's also light. You know, it doesn't pollute. It's not dirty. It's not a dirty industry that you can see, but actually it is. It's just not somewhere close to you.
Martina Nemcic:And that's also one of the biggest problems there because, for example, if in Croatia or any other European country, if the government decides to put a power plant next to your house, you have a say in that. But if they want to build a data center, then not really, because we don't really have a say in the technology we are using and the AI or crypto or whatever technologies that are available for us today, not only available, but they are everywhere. And we can't, you know, as EU citizens, we can't really say this is not something that is needed. We don't need 5,500 apps for video production based on AI, because if nothing else, it is a threat to our democracy. And why is this even valuable for us?
Martina Nemcic:So that's the whole point of digital sustainability. It does not stop the progress. It just wants to see what is needed, what is valuable for the society in a whole and what is the most environmentally responsible.
James Gill:That's I mean, gosh, there's so many topics we could explore further there, Martina, but I I know we are already over time, and I I'm keen to just try to wrap up before Jojo's dogs go crazy and and start going going and wanting to get out for a walk. So I I'd love to wrap up just by summarizing if if you like around any any advice you've both received that you'd like to pass on because you clearly both got so much experience in the world of sustainability, digital sustainability. You've already shared a lot of great, tips and tricks both for builders and for consumers. So is there anything else, yeah, you'd like to share, before we wrap up? I I don't know if if either of you wanna take that.
Martina Nemcic:Jojo is, she stays she stayed silent.
James Gill:Yeah. I'm still thinking.
Martina Nemcic:No, I'm thinking. Well, this was a great question and it's really got me thinking. And I first started thinking about, you know, about my career, what advice that I was giving advanced my career. But then I realized it was not any career advancing advice. It was what my family, what my friends taught me, what my mom taught me about being just kind to everyone.
Martina Nemcic:Today we really have to be kind to each other because we're surrounded by so much technology and so many information that you might think, Oh, everything is just dark, brutal, but in fact there's a lot of kindness in the world. One thing that I remembered and also what often directs me is what I learned in the book called Humankind, maybe you guys read it, by Rudker Brighman. He says that, you know, he actually in his book, he sets out to prove that people are inherently good and actually evolutionarily wired for cooperation and not for competition. So he decided to debunk a lot of research that was done in the past that proved that people are just like terrible to each other and that that's in our nature. But in fact, he really debunked most of the research on that.
Martina Nemcic:And he says that people are wired for cooperation. There's a really good I will cite it because I loved it, especially in light of all the crises that are happening today with the hurricanes that we have, the flooding that we have in Europe. It says when the crisis hits, when the bombs fall or the floodwaters rise, that we humans become our best selves. So that really gives me hope for the future. I know that we all are doing a lot of people are doing a lot of amazing stuff in their domains to make a world a better place to help the environment heal.
Martina Nemcic:And hopefully, know, Creek and Pine is one small part of that.
James Gill:That's really a beautiful way to finish, I think, Martina. Thank you so much for sharing that. It's very, very profound. Thank you. I I think that's been a wonderful show, both of you.
James Gill:Thank you, Martina. Thank you, Jojo. Thank you, Jojo, for going by a different name temporarily. I hugely appreciate that. Thank you to Jojo's Dogs as well for being
Martina Dodo:I'm sorry.
James Gill:Being I'm sorry. No. No. We we love we love a good dog on the podcast. Thank you both of you.
James Gill:And I I guess just before we finish, if anyone wants to go see your work and and learn more about what you're working on, and pine.co is the website, and we'll we'll link to that. And and I know, we'll put links to LinkedIn and Instagram and things in the in the show notes so people can go go check it out. So, yeah, I think that's a wrap. So thank you very much both of you for joining me.
Martina Nemcic:Thank you. Thanks so much for having us. Yeah.
Martina Dodo:Thank you for having us.
James Gill:Thank you, Bartina.
Martina Dodo:And I also wanted to just add, thank you. I want to thank Ecosend for what are they doing, but what you guys are doing And yeah, we wish only the best to you and to everyone interested in the story.
James Gill:Thank you, Jojo. That's very kind. We're we wouldn't be here without people like yourselves, so it's we're all in this together. So thank you very much, and really, really lovely to speak to you both today. And and I I must also say thank you for everyone watching or listening.
James Gill:Thank you for tuning in today. If you've enjoyed today's show, if you feel inspired to redo your website, to use the Internet in a more thoughtful way, please let us know. Please share this episode with more people because we really wanna make sure Martina Jojo's story and advice gets out there to more and more people. So thank you for, being with us today, and we'll catch you next time.
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