The EcoSend Podcast

Season 3 Episode 7
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[00:00:53] Track 1: \Hi there. Welcome to another episode of the EcoSend podcast. I am thrilled to be doing another episode of the show. For those who are maybe tuning in for the first time, the EcoSend Podcast is a show where we interview people doing great stuff in the world usually from the world of business, but having a business with more of a purpose about it and often trying to make the world a little bit better, especially through their climate work. And this week is no different. I am here with a wonderful guest this week. I'm joined by Loic Vandermeeran from KWiiD and Loic is gonna talk to us all about his business that he is building and his journey. Loic originally from Belgium.

[00:01:33] He moved to moved to Switzerland five years ago for work. He's a chemist by background, and he's been working for 16 years in the. Pharmaceutical industry, but he's now on his journey with KWiiD in the world of startups and the world of startups trying to make the world better. So I'm very excited to be joined by you.

[00:01:52] Loic how are you doing today? Welcome to the show.

[00:01:54] Loïc Jean Vandermeeren (KWiiD): Hi, James. I'm doing very well. Thank you for having me.

[00:01:59] Track 1: Awesome. Awesome to have you. So like maybe in your own words, like, it'd be great if you could share what, what you're up to right now and what you're doing with KWiiD and maybe also a little bit about your journey to this. I'm, I'm really fascinated to dig into it.

[00:02:13] Loïc Jean Vandermeeren (KWiiD): Sure. So I'm a chemist by background and I think since I was a teenager I always had the The entrepreneur DNA in me and always wanted to help share what I learned around the way and, and, and, and, and listen to people. And I think I was close to launch a business several times, but this time is a, is a good one.

[00:02:33] At least I jump into the water. The idea is to give a better place to everyone. And a specific idea, which I'm working on for the moment, is to reduce, the number of single use packaging we have on the planet. So basically the carton boxes and I, we like to replace them with what we have created, which is a, an innovative, very simple but strong reusable box.

[00:03:01] Track 1: This is so, so exciting. 'cause I think anyone listening is very aware of how many bits of packaging and parcels that they pick up and end up throwing away almost immediately on a daily basis. I know in, in London the temptation to order just one more thing on Amazon and you end up with like five items with five huge cardboard boxes.

[00:03:24] And before you know it, your bin is full with cardboard that's been used for about five seconds. So I, I'm very, very excited to, to hear more about this though. I can and dig in. 'cause it sounds like you are working on something that is greatly, greatly needed in the world right now.

[00:03:39] Why are you working on this then though? Like how did you get to this point? What's your journey been like to get to here? Because I'm sure you didn't just wake up and decide to work on that

[00:03:49] Loïc Jean Vandermeeren (KWiiD): I wanted to create a better place for everyone. Not that the place we're living it is, is bad, but it can be better, especially from a non environment perspective and also for, for the kids and the next generation... One day I was just, you know, going to the recycling park with, with my carton and I realized that I was not the only one.

[00:04:09] Many, many people come to the recycling port and that's only, you know, the good citizen wanted to recycle their stuff and saw all the carton just piling up into the container and say, 'Hey, there is something we should do about it'. We are trying, you know, in the old days you have this, this big this milk bottles with, with a cushion, with a, a deposit on it.

[00:04:27] And that's, that's the idea.

[00:04:28] So can we, in place of creating new packaging in each time, could we just the one that we had? But to be able to tackle that challenge, we had a, a couple of issue to solve. It should be robust enough, you know, we should be able to use it in a way that it'll not damage the box.

[00:04:45] It should be very simple. It should be gamish for the user to be able to use it. More importantly, it has to make business sense for the retailers, for the one who will create the order, prepare the order. It must be fast, but also it has to do it has to make business sense for them. If you propose something which is good for the planet, but more expensive, unfortunately it does not work. So we had to fix those challenges. And, and finally we, we found something which is exactly that. So we have an instant opening system, a very robust box. And, and we are looking for our customers now. So the, the proof of concept has been completed.

[00:05:21] We are doing pilots in the coming months with, with different companies.

[00:05:24] So yeah, this is the start of the journey. I, I'm very excited to be able to leverage what I learned along the way. You can have an idea that's, that's great. That's a spark. But to be able to continue and, and make it real you need to execute, you need to make it real. You can have the thought, but without the fuel, it will not have, you will not have any, anything, right? So the idea is just the start. And then to be able to make it real. Happening in the real world, you need to execute. That's really key. And, and that's was, I was afraid for so long and, and now I, you know, I did that, steps, which was not that difficult.

[00:06:01] It was more mental blockage and, but when you jump in, you just say, oh, you know, you have good days, bad days, you know that as well, but you, you just have to crush it and continue.

[00:06:13] Track 1: Yeah, absolutely. It's an incredibly exciting time to be starting something new, but also sometimes terrifying . How, how did your I'm intrigued by how your background in, in pharmaceuticals and, and the, the, maybe the slightly more corporate world has influenced your decision to go into this. And, and where is that helping you out on your, on your journey, if at all?

[00:06:36] Loïc Jean Vandermeeren (KWiiD): I, I, I think it does. You know, because of my scientific background, I'm, I'm really passionate about and how things works. It's not only high level strategic thinking, it is about how do you do it on the field? How do you make it happen? So this, this very practical approach is something I like. And then of course, it's about connection with people dealing with partners, dealing with customers. So it's all about human relationship. And when you do that, when you do business for good with a purpose that's makes, I don't know, it, it creates a specific magic, special magic that makes things very exciting. And, and that's, that's how everything connects is having a purpose, having a vision and do that with, with people who share that vision with you, gives a, a very vibrant execution and journey.

[00:07:30] Track 1: Yeah. I, so I know you wanted to talk a bit about that, that entrepreneurial journey and, and the importance of, of execution towards it. Because I think many people listening will maybe have ideas for how, or maybe frustrations with the world and ideas for ways they might want to solve it.

[00:07:49] But as, as you as, I think anyone doing something knows, like the ideas are great, but they're often pretty useless without, without a bit of execution. So what, what's your secret here to actually making some of those ideas into reality? Loic, give all your secrets away, please!

[00:08:08] Loïc Jean Vandermeeren (KWiiD): I think there is no magic, but there is some mindset that will help you to, make it real. And you know, motivation is there for the good days. When you have an idea, you're all excited about it. You want to do it, you, you want to make it real. But they will have tough days. And those tough days are where discipline is, is required.

[00:08:30] So motivation is for the good days, discipline is for the tough days. And when you realize that the entrepreneur journey is a rollercoaster, and you will have good days and bad days, and that's normal. That's life. You have summer and winter. What I underestimated as a, as a, as a founder is that those ups and downs will be So close. You know when I was in the corporate world, it was more smooth. You have high and down, but the frequency that high and now it's, you can be high in the morning and down in the afternoon or almost like this, right? And, and that's normal. And you just have to continue according to your plan. Be proactive as much as you can different plans. If that comes in, what will be the move? What, what is the decision? What is the plan B? and that's really it. You don't have to be stupid though. You know, when there are some obvious situation, you don't have to keep hitting the wall.

[00:09:24] You, you need to be smart. Discipline is, is really key. That will make you cruise the storm.

[00:09:34] Track 1: Yeah, there's there's a great book you may I, that I, I enjoyed. You may have seen it too, called Atomic Habits, and I know it's been a very popular book, at least in the UK and there's a, there's a quote in there that's something like, "We don't rise to the level of our goals, but we fall to the level of our systems."

[00:09:53] And I, that stuck with me quite a bit in terms of building healthy or reliable habits and systems that help you keep on track even on those really tough low days. And you know, no one's perfect, but what you're saying there really resonates with me as well for how many ups and downs you can go on this journey, and especially for yourself when you are

[00:10:15] you know, not even, you're not tackling a simple problem here. You've got physical, retail and product. You've got retailers, you've got delivery stuff, you've got consumers and like a solution here that works for all those parties. There's so many spinning plates, I can only begin to imagine to, to get right.

[00:10:34] So I, yeah. It sounds like you must be a very disciplined person indeed, Loic, to make that work.

[00:10:41] Loïc Jean Vandermeeren (KWiiD): I I try to, and again, it's, it's about the mindset, right? When you have the right mindset and you want to make things happen, then you find the energy and, and with discipline, with the sleep, the good health and, and support around you. When you connect with nice people and, and you had some very nice guests on your podcast too, and those are inspiring, right?

[00:11:00] And when you, you listen to those guys who make it happen, who did it and will continue to crush on it, that that's just, yeah. Amazing and inspiring.

[00:11:11] Track 1: Yeah, absolutely. I, I know another one of the topics you wanted to discuss was around helping people on the planet. And this being your, your mission with what you're doing. A lot of people when they go on a startup journey or an entrepreneurial journey, they, they want to go and make money

[00:11:30] But you, I'm not saying you don't wanna make money either, but but I'm intrigued by how that's come about? And what that means to you and, and how, how you're thinking about that while you're building your business.

[00:11:41] Loïc Jean Vandermeeren (KWiiD): Yeah. So my, my personal drivers in life and in business is I like to help, I like to share and I like to learn. So when I was, you know, getting older, not that I'm that old, but I, I wanted to make something better for the planet. Help the planet and make this place better. So I, I wanted, I was looking for an idea that was, you know, who had a purpose, who had a meaningful sense regarding that principle of helping others and helping the planet. So when the ideas of sustainable, sustainable packaging and reusable packaging came, may sound, you know, silly and obvious, but for me it was resonating with my personal goal, which I wanted to help. So when I combine this business need, because Companies are now looking into more sustainability, customers wants to be more sustainable. They make more educated decision regarding how they consume stuff. There is also the government coming in saying, 'Hey guys, you need to reduce your number of waste'. And they are targeting some, retailers; there are some countries like Australia, France, we just issue new laws to invite retailers to reduce the number of waste. So when you were combining those plus my wish to help the planet and, and this invention that we have patented regarding the collapsible box, we, we believe there is now a momentum. and, and that is the magic right in the shaker. You have all the ingredient to have a meaningful, purposeful professional life. Helping the planet, helping the customer, having a, a gamish user experience, but also, you know, playing the game in a very meaningful and... with, with a sense, with a purpose.

[00:13:36] Track 1: Yeah, absolutely. I mean then, yeah, no one's losing then. Everyone wins

[00:13:40] Loïc Jean Vandermeeren (KWiiD): That's the only way to do!

[00:13:41] Track 1: Which is a wonderful. A wonderful story. Yeah. Win win, win, win. I, I love it. So inspiring to hear you talk about it like that Loic. And yeah I agree. Hopefully, you know, from my perspective at least, I hope that more and more countries around the world increasingly care about this, not just the individuals and the businesses, but at a nationwide, and state level where rules and laws can come in, to encourage and incentivize the right behaviors. Because I think while it's great to see so many people doing good, I think a lot of the change comes when it is required and no longer an option.

[00:14:23] And, and then you end up leveling everyone, and every business up to making better decisions. And yeah, slightly off topic nd more political, but I, I think everyone around the world needs to be jumping on board to try and solve some of the challenges we have right now.

[00:14:39] So, I appreciate you sharing that as a, a whole theme there, Loic. I, I guess in terms of kind of related to this, I know we talked about it a little bit, but this whole concept of, which I'm sure we've all heard, hopefully now the frame of reduce, reuse, recycle.

[00:14:57] You seemingly are building a company that almost, , that could be your tagline. So it'd be great to hear more about how you think about that with your product development, about how you're developing KWiiD and yeah, how, how do you even go about persuading businesses to jump on board with this approach?

[00:15:15] It'd be good to I was gonna say, unpack that a bit, but that would be a bit of a pun with the the box side of things. But yeah!

[00:15:21] Loïc Jean Vandermeeren (KWiiD): Yeah, that's hopefully something that becomes more and more known by everyone. This 'reduce Reuse and R ecycle In the past, you know, at least that's what I learned at school, at university, that we wanted to reduce our impact by recycling our materials. And actually there are two more important steps to do before that. And before being able to recycle what you have used it's much better first to reduce what you need and have a more meaningful consumption life. Meaning that, do you really need to buy this? Is it really necessary Do you need to buy a new iPhone?

[00:15:56] Do you need to change clothes? Do you need to go with your car over there? Reduce, reduce, reduce. And, and with KWiiD, that's what we do with all boxes. We wanted to reduce the number of boxes on the planet because we'll be able to reduce it. So you don't need those piles at the retailers because they will be able to reuse the one they just received back. that's the first thing. And then of course, because it's circular, you reuse it as well. And, and, and it's not the con, it's not only a concept at the, at the packaging level, but it's, it can be applied to anywhere in your life, right? You can be smarter in the way you buy stuff and that's where I think.... You mentioned the, the government and the laws, but the, the real power is, is with the people, right?

[00:16:35] So when people take ownership of their own behavior and they do things that are meaningful because they know how it goes, and then we can connect with the education topic afterwards if you want. But it's really about who has the power, the one's who buy stuff. You know, a business relates to its customer. So we can discuss, for example, greenwashing, right? When you have greenwashing... people listen to it. So if you have people, or customers aware about what they are doing and the information they receive is not exactly right, and if they have better knowledge, better understanding of what's going on, they will be able to take a better decision.

[00:17:13] They will change their customer behaviors, and then the greenwashing will die by itself. So it's, it's about knowledge and, and it's not about on the education, you have to be curious. There are plenty sources of information today. It's very difficult to find the way within all those sources, but it's possible to know what's happening or have a better understanding at least. And to make educated decision and, and be able to select the product that makes sense according to what you really need. You know, connection to the reuse and then reuse what you have. And then finally you can recycle. There are some nice chemical processes to recycle. But before that, we should reduce and reuse. That's for sure. That's the only way.

[00:17:57] Track 1: Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, very much emphasizing that recycling is, is the last resort, and I assume largely because that bit gets very messy, that bit requires energy, a lot more energy in itself that requires investment to figure out how to recycle things, and not everything easily can be recycled, right?

[00:18:19] Loïc Jean Vandermeeren (KWiiD): Correct. And, and, and I think you, you had also Tim Frick the other day on your podcast and you know, we thank that digital is the future and technology is the future. And that's partly right. But I think what you do with EcoSend and, and also what, what Tim is doing with a MightyBytes is bringing the sustainability dimension into the digital space, which is needed in the way we are living today.

[00:18:42] If you don't want to go back to the Stone Age, we will need to keep the technology, make the technology a bit greener. When, you know, hosting the server on a location where the energy is coming from the center, from the windows kind of things, which will keep the level where it is in term of comfort. But it'll reduce the impact on the planet.

[00:19:01] And, and that's I think needed regarding the world we are, we are in today. So it's it's about the conscience and, and, being able to, yeah, take the decision and live the life which we feel comfortable with.

[00:19:16] Track 1: Absolutely. And I, I guess just I was just gonna follow on though around the, the topic of... especially with physical products and reducing and reusing, and I, I know you also mentioned in passing about the transport piece as well. Which must be a critically important piece of, especially in your work where boxes don't sit still.

[00:19:39] They get transported from A to B and that's usually why something ends up in a box to protect it. And I guess, I guess that whole transport piece is not always something anyone thinks about when they're buying a product on a shelf in a supermarket or a shop of any kind. So is that, is that another piece where, you know, there's thoughts in your brain, the entrepreneurial brain of, of trying to solve that?

[00:20:01] Or are there there solutions there that are, are, are of interest to you then like that, that help us reduce that side of the impact?

[00:20:10] Loïc Jean Vandermeeren (KWiiD): Of course we should all when possible buy local. But I think it's, it's touching on a... I can share with our journey when initially we wanted our product to be B2B2C, meaning that you as a customer or you buy online and you receive at your place, at your home, the box, and then you collapse the box, it's already you have already the stamp on it so you don't have to for the return. And you just drop it into a letter box.

[00:20:35] Track 1: Right.

[00:20:35] Loïc Jean Vandermeeren (KWiiD): The challenge with that today is the return, is still costing... it's more costly, so to pay for the stamp return is more costly than buying a new carton box. So when you put yourself in the shoes of the retailer, you have the option of, 'okay, I can go sustainable, but then I would've to pay for the return'. Which is more expensive than taking a new box on my pile coming from the carton manufacturer.

[00:20:59] What we did at KWiiD, we, pivoted a bit and in place of targeting that from the beginning, we wanted to work on what we call internal flows and e-commerce. for example, you have a warehouse. We prepare an order for a customer, which decided to not select in the order process. You can select if the order is shipped to your own place or if you want to pick it up when you go to the shop in, in your, in the city center or something.

[00:21:24] So basically instead of shipping warehouse to your place privately, it can go to the local shop where you can go and pick it up. And when you do that, the big difference from a, business perspective is that the brand stays in control of the box. Because when you go to the shop and you pick up your goods, you leave the box there and then the shop

[00:21:44] collapse and returns.

[00:21:45] So from a, from a logistic perspective, it's the same truck that goes back and forth within the brands, and it doesn't go outside of the control of the company. That's the pivot we made a few months ago to ensure that we will be able to be successful from a business perspective, because sustainability wise it makes complete sense. But to be a real solution for all customers, it also has to make business sense. And that's where we did that pivot to be sure. You know, sustainability alone will not be a strong driver enough to, to make the customer decision to move away from the carton single use solution and move to the reusable one. So that's, that's the way we, we approach the market.

[00:22:29] Track 1: Yeah, absolutely. I, that's a really interesting one because it is also something we hit on with EcoSend a lot as well. When you, you have some, maybe you find this too. You have many great conversations with businesses and particularly leaders within a business who are desperately want to do the right thing when it comes to planet and climate.

[00:22:51] But at the end of the day, there are very, very hard realities of business today, which are ultimately taking the priority. And so it's like trying to find ways to bring creative solutions that care about the climate, but into a business where, back to the point earlier, it's, it's win, win, win.

[00:23:10] And there's not a downside. And, and I, I think as soon as you sort, sort of start trying to bring a climate pitch in, which has a trade off, which has, you know, 'oh, but it's more expensive' or, but it doesn't have this feature you need, that's where people suddenly get very real with where climate sits in their agenda. And, and I, I think it's just something that's a harsh reality, I think, especially in B2B. Which I, I think is something that hopefully, you know, hopefully that keeps rising up the agenda for more and more businesses. But it, it's, it's yeah, it's a tough world to, to compete in out there.

[00:23:44] Loïc Jean Vandermeeren (KWiiD): Correct.

[00:23:45] Track 1: I I know in terms of timing Loic, we're, we're flying through the, the episode and I'm keen to make sure we touch on some of the other things you wanted to talk about because there's a couple of other cracking topics to talk through, and I think in particular you wanted to talk about the importance of Education.

[00:24:02] And I, I know you've mentioned it a a few times, but Education is obviously very, very near and dear to your heart, and in, in your opinion, is, is a big part of the answer to some of the challenges we have right now, right?

[00:24:13] Loïc Jean Vandermeeren (KWiiD): Completely. If, if you want a better world, if you want people to behave in a different way,

[00:24:19] you need to tell them why, right? You cannot just put rules and say, 'Hey, this is the line you need to follow'. You need to explain why you follow those lines. And it's even better if the customer themself can define their own line and say, 'Hey, I want to behave like this because that's my value.'

[00:24:34] That's my principle. So the only way to do that is to learn, right? You can read book, you can listen to podcasts, you can serve the internet, you can, you can go anywhere, discuss with friends, and you get knowledge. And with that knowledge, you can change your behaviours.

[00:24:51] And you can decide what's good, what's not good for you, according to your principles. And so it's basically education. So when people have a good understanding of what they're facing they can navigate it more smartly and change their attitude, their lifestyle. And I guess that's you James, today, you have a different lifestyle than you had when you have 15 years or 20 years, or 25. And it's, it's experience, it's about education, it's about learning. And I think that's in today's world, if we want people to have a different lifestyle, a different meaningful behavior regarding how they move on the planet, what type of vacation they're selecting, the kind of food they are eating, the kind of entertainment they are doing.

[00:25:37] You know, if you want that to be more meaningful and less impactful, one of the best ways to do that is to educate people.

[00:25:45] And it's everyone's responsibility right? It's your responsibility to know and to learn, and to read and to listen. So it's not something that we will give you as a gift. Say, 'Hey, good luck. Now you're educated and yeah, have a happy life'. No, it's really your responsibility to look into it and, and learn and if possible share as well. Because it's in sharing that, you know, you create this stimulation and, and synergies between people. And that's what we're doing today. Now we are sharing the moment and hopefully people listening to us will be able to take that as a good advice. And they will like it and say, 'Hey, you know what, to tomorrow I will do this, I will do that'.

[00:26:18] I will take my life into my hands and have a more meaningful personal life. And when you do that, you're happier, you're healthier. And it's a positive spiral, right? So it's easy said, but it's not so easy to do. But I really encourage everyone to do it.

[00:26:35] Track 1: Absolutely. What, what a strong what a strong statement to be, to be almost wrapping up the show with like, I, I think that's such, such a inspiring, uplifting sort of sentiment to have, because the education piece, it's never done is it? It's, it's something that we are always working towards and yeah. The journey that we've been on ourselves I think has been an incredibly fascinating one. And, you know, I feel every, every week and every day that goes by, I'm learning more about the wider topic of how we can make things a bit better on this planet. And I'm always amazed at how little I knew a week ago or a month ago and a year ago. And yeah, as you as, as you said, Loic, learning and then sharing as well, and sharing is a great way to learn better and help it stick in the brain too. I think so.

[00:27:24] I know before we, before we do wrap up, Loic, I think there's just two more things I wanted to talk through with. One was your own future, what's, what's next for yourself and, and for KWiiD?

[00:27:36] I'm keen to hear, and I, I'm sure many listeners will be keen to hear about where, where you're going next, if you can share anything there?

[00:27:42] Loïc Jean Vandermeeren (KWiiD): So for the moment KWiiD is only available in in Switzerland, but we want to make it available anywhere. So probably the next step will be to go in Europe or in the US. We have to decide on that one, but for sure we want to make that wherever possible because the final goal is to remove the single use carton box from the planet. That's from a, a company perspective.

[00:28:02] And personally, you know, I like sharing, I like learning, I like connecting. So I'm, I'm wondering if one day I may do like you do maybe a podcast or coaching business or, you know, helping others. We want to have a more impacting or a more meaningful life.

[00:28:17] So maybe helping others in a more structured way that, that might be something coming on my way too.

[00:28:24] Track 1: Yeah, absolutely. That, that sounds that sounds very exciting to me. Do, do keep us posted! Maybe there's another podcast episode once you've got that, that set up too, and you're in your US headquarters running everything. That's awesome. That sounds very exciting though. And I guess just on the last point, I know we always ask guests if there's any advice they've received over the years or any advice they have for others.

[00:28:47] And I believe you, you have some. As if you haven't already shared enough advice, I, I am keen to just grab any, anything you, any wise words you have for us before we wrap up the show today.

[00:28:58] Loïc Jean Vandermeeren (KWiiD): From, from a business perspective, I, I think the best advice I received in my very short journey was get to know your customer and connect with your customers as soon as possible. Don't wait to have an MVP or something which is sellable, or you think it's sellable. Before connecting with them, you need to build something that will help them, so it's a solution for them. So as soon as possible, you should contact with them to be sure that what you are building, what you are creating, what you are offering will be helping them will be solving one issue. So connect with your customers as soon as possible. That's the best advice or of the best advice I receive d during my entrepreneurial journey.

[00:29:36] Track 1: Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. I, I think that sounds very solid. I could not agree more as well. And so easy to put that off while you focus on building the thing. But talking to people, connecting customers, it never is a bad idea, is it?

[00:29:52] Loïc Jean Vandermeeren (KWiiD): It's always easy. You know, it's your baby, you try to build it. You are very passionate about it. So you want to iterate, iterate, build improve, and then by doing so, you do that as a silo, right? You disconnect a bit from your customer, and that's the thing. You try to break with that, that know, connection, keeping your customer appraised of what you are doing, why you are doing, take the feedback. Implement it. Adapt and, and yeah, be agile.

[00:30:19] Track 1: Absolutely, absolutely Loic. It has been an absolute pleasure speaking with you today. I, I'm coming away from this feeling incredibly inspired and motivated to to go out there and, and share everything I know a bit more and do more in this world. To make things better. I'm also gonna try and cut down my usage of boxes and I see if I can get hold of a KWiiD box at some point. Hopefully you do make it over to the UK soon and I'm wishing you the best of luck on on expanding KWiiD because it seems like exactly what the world needs right now. And for anyone who wants to connect with you, you are on LinkedIn, so we'll put that link in the, in the show notes.

[00:30:57] And your website for the, the offering itself is KWiiD.com so that's K W I I d.com, which I think is a, is a really great domain. So congrats on getting that. So thank you, Loic, thank you very much for joining me on the show today.

[00:31:13] Loïc Jean Vandermeeren (KWiiD): Thank you so much. It was a pleasure.

[00:31:17] Track 1: Cheers Loic and thank you everyone for listening and or watching today. Really appreciate you tuning in. As always, if you've enjoyed the show, it really helps if you let us know and let other people know. So do drop a nice comment or a rating for the show. It really helps get wonderful stories like Loic's out there into the world.

[00:31:36] So thank you for tuning in and we'll catch you next time!

[00:31:40]