The EcoSend Podcast

S5E11finalcut
===

[00:00:00] Welcome to the EcoSend podcast. Be inspired, educated, and entertained by the world's most ambitious leaders putting climate at the top of their agenda.

[00:00:27] Extra special episode of the EcoSend podcast today. Not just special because we have a chance to put our host in the hot seat, but we're also doing so in person for the first time, so. Really happy to have James here for our traditional wrap up episode as we bring season five to a close. and a chance to reflect on our guests stories and lessons from the past season.

[00:00:48] We've had a real mixture of guests this season from B Corp consultants, purpose driven entrepreneurs, podcast coaches, and even an entire episode about sewage and surfing. I think the lessons and episodes have been just as varied and we're looking forward to cracking into the episode with you, James, understanding your thoughts.

[00:01:06] And just if you are tuning in for the first time, The Ecosend podcast is a platform where we interview founders, marketers, and leaders in sustainability who are creating more climate and community focused businesses. My name is Chris, I'm the customer success lead here at Ecosend, and today in the hot seat, I'm delighted to welcome back James, our host and CEO, to understand his thoughts and learnings from the past season and from running Ecosend itself.

[00:01:32] So, James, great to have you here. How are you getting today? Cheers, Chris. It's a pleasure to be here. It's great to be doing an episode in person. I'm so excited for this. It's the first time, so let's see how it goes. I'm excited to begin. Yeah. Amazing, amazing. So to kick off, I think one thing that's really inspired me from the fifth season are our guests who initially found themselves working in jobs or in industries that perhaps conflicted with their values with their kind of mission.

[00:01:57] I think in particular of Tim Jones of when he was working in medical device sales prior to starting his B Corp consultancy or Michelle Miles, who eventually first started in the wedding industry. And they took this kind of brave leap into moving away from that industry to an industry that aligns much more with their values or even creating their own businesses.

[00:02:17] What do you see as the better course of action to move away from an incompatible industry or to work to change that industry from within? Yeah, it's a great question, Chris. I think yeah, it's been a, well, first of all, it's been an incredible series, like series five, probably already doing series five wrap up of the podcast, like something that started as, as, you know, a few, a few conversations with inspiring people and now to have done all these episodes, it's, it's truly an honor to, to speak to our guests.

[00:02:45] And I think in this series, yeah, there's been so many conversations that have yielded fascinating insights and And yeah, as you say, one of the things that Stephanie stood out is people sort of switching out or changing roles, changing, changing professions, careers because of their, their own values and what they want to do.

[00:03:06] And I think that's a broader topic that's really interesting to dig into around. People, people don't just want a job. I mean, I would say these days, but I think maybe it's been true forever. People. So ideally they don't just want a job, they want a job that really aligns with what they deeply care about themselves.

[00:03:23] And, and yeah, as you said, Tim and Michelle were both having different approaches to this. I think, I think in terms of, I wouldn't necessarily want to give advice to anyone out there because I don't feel terribly authoritative enough to do that. But I, I think it's, it's interesting when we look at it from our perspective, sometimes it can seem like this.

[00:03:43] Trying to change your own industry is impossible, or sometimes it can feel like there's no point in changing your own industry, how much difference is it going to make? But I think I'd say to anyone who's maybe feeling like that, definitely challenge that thought. I think you know, we for a long time didn't really know if there was anything we could do from a primary perspective or a more wider sort of ethical perspective that would make much of a difference.

[00:04:08] Thanks. Here we are doing series five of a podcast all about making business a force for good. So I think, I think no matter what industry you're in, there's always an opportunity to do something. And what a great thing to be part of driving that change yourself. And I think as we might come onto in this episode often being part of changing an organization or a business, It doesn't just make you feel better, it could potentially have some big business consequences too, big positive business impact.

[00:04:41] So yeah, I, I think it's it's not an easy path to navigate, but I think there's always, there's often a lot more that can be done than people necessarily initially might think. So I guess the takeaway point is kind of just take action either way. If you're in that position where you're finding you're working somewhere that's Start with small steps, whether it's to change from within or to move away, or take action either way.

[00:05:06] I think, I think so, and I think I think that would be my place to start. It's worth trying to change things, and hey, if you, if you do come across too much pushback, or you come across real, like, industry resistance you quickly find out whether that's something you can, you Individually change? Can you cause a ripple that causes more change or is that something that at some point you've gotta say, Hey, now I'm gonna get into a different industry.

[00:05:33] And you know, some of these industries are very, very hard to, to change and may maybe too much for one person. But again, I would say never, never underestimate what change you can make as an individual. Because as an individual today, you have so much more opportunity than ever to make change the, the kind of platforms that exist.

[00:05:53] The, the ways you can bring people together behind, running around the course. I think, you know, you see that across all hoops of life now. I, I would just say that would be my first place to start. You'll find the answers to your exploration. Yeah, you'll certainly learn something. Another big learning I think from episode eight that was with Will Kinshin is just quite how long it takes for, Environment campaigns to reach the public eye.

[00:06:18] And recently in the UK, we've had a lot of news around how the UK coastlines have been affected by sewage. A lot of coverage in media outlets. But what I'm missing from the episode from Will is that this is actually a campaign that was started by Surfers Against Sewage years ago, just coming into public eye now, so perhaps you can kind of draw some parallels to what we're and your ecosystem with.

[00:06:44] Trying to bring attention to the carbon footprint of digital marketing, which is still something that the general public, maybe at large, doesn't quite have an understanding of. So how do you stay motivated to push the message and the mission forward, particularly during these kind of difficult, more difficult times?

[00:07:00] Yeah, I think the World episode was a real eye opener. Yeah, for those maybe not in in the UK, there's been a large There's a number of articles in the media about how our waterways, our oceans around the UK are more polluted than ever, and a lot of that is due to, yeah, waste getting into the water system.

[00:07:20] I never thought I'd say the word sewage as much as or hear it as much in a single episode as we did with Will, but it was truly eye opening. It's something maybe, you know, don't always come up in polite conversation, but I think it, you know, it really opened my eyes a bit to something we should care about.

[00:07:36] Like, we should care about the oceans around us, the water we have available to us, and we should care about where waste goes. Like, it's our responsibility as a species. And, and I, I think that that whole initiative and hearing, you know, hearing it in the media and hearing Will say that actually it's something that has been an issue for like a decade or more, was just incredible.

[00:08:01] everyone. I think it really reminded me of another thing that's sort of more, I've certainly taken notes of in the business world, where things can seem like something, or a concept, or a product, or maybe a founder is an overnight success. And, you know, anyone who's built anything will know that no such thing as an overnight success.

[00:08:22] You don't, you don't wake up and suddenly, well maybe one or two people get very lucky. But aside from winning the lottery, it's mostly things take. Years and years and years of hard work. And relentless focus on driving, driving change, driving awareness. And I, I look at that with what we're doing with EcoSend as well, for sure.

[00:08:45] You know, I think with EcoSend we're continuously learning about the industry we operate in, what we can and cannot change what opportunities there are to make more impact in the world. I think we're finding that, you know, the change we can have actually goes beyond digital sustainability, but really wider into ethical marketing and, and how brands communicate with their customers and how they drive consumption even.

[00:09:11] There's so many, like, big consequential things of the work we're doing. But I, I, I think there is a bit of a As sort of a wider change in the industry that we are wanting to see and starting to see. And I think these things do take time. They take time to organically develop. I'm not super sure if there are ways of speaking that up without compromising the integrity of what we're trying to do.

[00:09:40] But I think it's an incredibly exciting time where, you know, what's gone from basically being an idea of a brand A bit like this, chatting around to now being something that, you know, is actually impacting thousands and thousands of people all around the world. So yeah, I think it's, it's incredibly exciting and I think what drives me is that every day, every week is, is different.

[00:10:04] You kind of, you know, no matter how far you go, there's always a new challenge that is different to the last one, which is which is always changing and always learning from previous. Mistakes, successes all the time and that keeps every day kind of fresh and exciting. What's What challenge will come tomorrow?

[00:10:23] I suppose it's particularly interesting when you look at the general kind of social media landscape as well and what gets prioritized by algorithm tends to be more maybe inflammatory or more Controversial or you know decisive kinds of content. It's how do we keep our message going through without resorting to To, you know, controversial, this kind of thing as well.

[00:10:45] Yeah, it, yeah, absolutely. And I, I mean, without plugging email marketing too much, , you know, I think there's various things we try to do to try to make sure we, at the end of the day, I think you just, you've gotta build a relationship with your audience the trust of your audience. And if you do that, then I truly believe that through whatever algorithm changes or.

[00:11:08] platform shifts there are, if you can earn trust with your audience and, you know, you consciously try to create things that you believe will offer value to your audience, value, value, education, inspiration, entertainment, then you will earn that trust. And if you keep checking in with your audience, make sure you're delivering on that.

[00:11:31] I think that's what pulls you through the peaks and trust of any kind of platform. Another really interesting episode for me was episode two. That was with Aaron and Andrea Kraski, which I think very often in this kind of industry we're in, for purpose driven companies, the focus is understandably on positive impact.

[00:11:50] But Aaron's episode reminded me that at the same time you need to be profitable to have businesses that stay around. You know, it's not, it's not good having the best purpose driven product in the world if the company goes bust in a few months. So you know, as a entrepreneur or CEO, you still have to make a living for yourself and for your employees, but on the opposite side of the spectrum, you can also fall into issues with greenwashing and dressing up products that really are just for profit, which are trying to be presented as sustainable when, yeah, really their whole purpose is just to maximize shareholder profits.

[00:12:24] So in your experience at the helm, do you have any advice for purpose driven entrepreneurs? How to find that balance between, or that alignment between purpose and profit. Yeah, it's a concept we kind of come back to quite a lot on the podcast and as a team as well. Where, you know, business being primarily about profit, traditionally, and and charity being about doing the good stuff.

[00:12:52] And this belief that there is somewhere in between, there is a way for businesses. to do more good in the world. And I, I treated it even from the conversations of the podcast is fully reinforced and underscored this, that often doing good as a business does not mean chucking your profit away. It usually, and more cases than I can count doing more good, being more purpose driven.

[00:13:24] just has an overwhelmingly large number of positives for the business. You know, whether it's how much your team are passionate about what you're doing, how much your customers buy into what you're doing how you as an individual, as a founder may feel about the work you do every day, getting out of bed every day.

[00:13:43] Like, you know, I, I think there's this whole wave of businesses and, you know, the B Corp movement exemplifies that where Organizations and for profit organizations are doing more and more good. And there are more and more of these businesses than ever before. And I think you look at the, kind of, the jobs people want to be going into these days.

[00:14:04] Like, it's, it's, people don't want to go cock in nine to five and just take a paycheck home. Like, that is critical. That is crucial to take, to, to, you know, to ensure you're, you know, you are earning a crust but I think those that really, really are on the job market have options, like they are choosing careers and, and businesses that, that have a greater purpose than just revenue and profit, that are perhaps trying to make things a little bit better in the world in some way.

[00:14:39] And I think for businesses, There's just, there's so many reasons why, especially, specifically caring about sustainability is a good business decision in itself. There's various research around sort of companies that clearly, coherently, transparently communicate their sustainability values, builds a tremendous amount of trust with consumers and buyers.

[00:15:03] And I think we all know that when consumers trust a brand, they are more likely to buy it. I'm more likely to be loyal to that brand. So I think there's, there's just this huge growing set of evidence that doing the right thing, caring for your employees, caring for your supply chain, caring about the planet, caring about communities, is also just good business.

[00:15:27] And that's the kind of business I want us to be doing, and I want to see more of in the world. Yeah, definitely. I think ideally the incentives are coming from multiple angles where we're increasingly seeing consumer trends preferring sustainability or sustainable products. I think it was a PwC statistic that consumers are prepared to pay, I think it was 9.

[00:15:47] 7 percent more for that product. Then you have maybe the younger generation looking to work specifically for companies that provide tangible, positive impacts to the environment. Yeah. and increasingly regulations looking to make sure that everybody's looking at their supply chain. So hopefully it comes from all of those angles.

[00:16:06] Yeah, totally. Yeah, it really is a bit of a carrot and stick kind of approach. Yeah, yeah, totally agree. We're at the end of our fifth season of the podcast now, if you can believe it. We kicked off the first season of the show way back in November of 2022 which was like a lifetime What do you think has changed across the digital marketing and sustainability landscape from when we kicked off our first episode up until where we're at today?

[00:16:35] Yeah, it's incredible the time, the time has flown by over, over since, since series one. I, I think there's, there's been a few things. I think one of the really remarkable positive things has been just seeing. More and more people talking about doing, caring about digital sustainability, but also caring about ethical ways of doing business in general.

[00:17:03] And I, I think partly this could be the, you know, I myself and the team would be more and more absorbed in the world of, of both sustainability and of what ethical marketing practices. But I, I think also when you speak to people in those industries, they can feel this. There's a rise in care around this stuff.

[00:17:21] And I think that's a really, really positive thing to see. Because more people talking alone is a good thing. You learn more, more people become aware of these topics, and more people being aware of and learning about these topics mean more people are going to start going and finding things out for themselves, improving the collective massive knowledge around how to do things a little bit better on all fronts.

[00:17:45] I think it's just has grown considerably and that trend just seems to be growing and growing and growing. I think there's also been elements that have also been positive from a digital sustainability perspective. I think, you know, when you look at the technologies that are being used and a lot of providers in the space, there is a lot more care for renewable energy usage wherever possible.

[00:18:09] There's also more efficiencies coming into play in a lot of areas, which is great. But I think some of the challenge is that we've also got more and more demand than ever for the digital technologies we all live with. I mean, how many devices are in this room alone? But I think one thing that's really obvious that's come out in that timeline is the growth of generative AI.

[00:18:33] And all of the ramifications of that go from Sustainability perspective and energy usage perspective that demands a huge, just unfathomable energy demands from, from, from Gen AI and the compute resources needed for that. But also from the generative marketing and AI side of things where we've got these tools in our hands as creators, as marketers, what, as anyone now to create like never before.

[00:19:04] And what are the ramifications of that for some of these professions that have been established over decades, if not centuries. And, and, you know, I think there's some really big questions that continue to be forming around some of this profession. I think I am an optimist. And so I think we will find ways to work through these things and And things will, we'll find the natural equilibrium.

[00:19:29] And I think a lot of our AI hopes are perhaps overinflated at the moment. There's still a lot of questions about how helpful some of the technology is and when it will get to a point where it's more helpful than, than overpromising. But yeah, I think, I think a lot of, there's a lot of questions that have come up in, in just a short space of time.

[00:19:50] I think there's going to be a lot more. uncertainty, but a lot more opportunity over the coming few years on, on all things. So I guess we'll take you're optimistic. Yeah.

[00:20:05] No, I am optimistic. I think there's some incredibly smart people doing amazing work especially around how we can live richer and richer lives. With our digital, in our digital ads especially they carry more and more about the energy consumption there. At all levels of the stack, from building data centers that are more and more efficient, to websites that are more and more conscious of every single tiny pixel that is on the page.

[00:20:36] And then from an AI perspective, there's There's some of the smartest minds in the world working on this right now, and a lot of people are trying to find ways of the right way. A lot of people are not, but there's a lot of people that are, so, yeah. I think I, I echo that with every, every episode it seems like you understand the challenge even more.

[00:20:56] Which can be depressing, but at the same time, when we're speaking to these guests, we're understanding there are so many people out there. Doing is incredibly creative, offering incredibly creative solutions to the problems. Yeah. That also fills you with tremendous amount of hope. Yeah. You have to have the awareness of the problem first, which is the kind of dip in the cold pool, but then you realize actually there are really good, smart people working on, working on these things.

[00:21:21] So that is that is exciting. James, we're running out of time, but wrapping up as always with my favorite question. If you had to pick out one lesson from a guest this season that really stood out for you, what would it be? I love this question, Chris. I always find it so hard to pick, pick just one because there's been some wonderful, wonderful, I mean every, every episode is a joy and as I said at the start, you know, it really is one of the great honours of, of my role at Ecosend, being able to speak to these amazing, so many amazing guests we've had on the show over the last few years.

[00:21:53] I think, I think there are a few episodes that really stood out to me I think Kathy was a really inspiring one from doing a good thing. Yeah, and I just think this sort of idea that businesses have loads of stuff they don't need. We've been in this position ourselves, like, even as a small team, we still had a lot of stuff in a storage container after the pandemic.

[00:22:15] And, and trying to just. get rid of that stuff in a responsible way is a really, really difficult thing in one of the biggest cities in the world. We, like, how do we give it to anyone? How do we give it new, a new lease of life? And and obviously on the flip side of that, there's people that need things that businesses have, whether that's old computers, chairs, desks, whiteboards, whatever.

[00:22:41] We have that problem. Right. We were in search of a solution, and then Kathy and her team built that solution. And they haven't built it by becoming a huge VC backed organization, raising millions of pounds. Like, they built it themselves, like, in their kitchen and everything, you know, and just made it happen.

[00:23:00] And that's just a great example of, like, one of the wonderful things about, you know, that drew us originally to, like, building software. It's like, you can build something online. And it can impact in the real world, thousands and thousands of people. I think that was a wonderful, wonderful thing. I would also say, and Tim, the B Corp bloke, Tim was, was really, really reminding me that, you know, when we talk about things like the B Corp movement, B Corp, B Corp is relatively new, like it's only been around for, you know, five to ten years, I think it is.

[00:23:35] It's a problem. And it feels like this movement is growing. But Tim really reminded me, going back to basics, that I, it's almost a move back to how business originally was hundreds of years ago, back when, back when business was considered, you know, in a small community, there would maybe be businesses that looked after their staff, that they cared about the community they were in.

[00:23:59] And you couldn't be a business in a small village and not care about your community. Yeah, yeah. So I think, I think it was a good reminder that, like, you know, we may be going back to some, the real OG business days. With some of the practices we're talking about as being new today. And then I think finally Matt and Chrissy from Olsen we tried something new with that podcast episode.

[00:24:24] And I highly recommend if you haven't, haven't seen it, to check it out. Because We had two guests, Matt and Chrissy, both co founders of their agency, but they had a slide deck. And and it was all about how you can take steps towards becoming a more sustainable business. And by using the analogy of like, no one just gets up and runs a marathon, got to get out of the house, got to put your trainers on, you got to start taking steps.

[00:24:50] I just thought it was such a an inspiring episode because it really showed that You know, we can all make some changes. And some of those changes are small, some of those changes may not even have much impact, but even tiny changes, they sort of start you on a journey. And I think when you look at the wider world, I am conscious that many of you listening to this podcast may be already quite a few steps ahead on that journey.

[00:25:14] But there's hundreds, there's thousands, there's millions of people out there that have not yet made a single turn. And I think yeah, it's a great episode for anyone in that position. James van Verden. Chris. very much for coming on the podcast. Where can people find you? Just, you know, I'm on the EcoSend every day and do give us a follow on all of the usual channels.

[00:25:37] Be sure to check out the EcoSend newsletter as well, which we're currently put out every Friday. And, and yeah, other, you know, get me on LinkedIn if you want. Otherwise, yeah, check out EcoSend if you haven't already. Amazing. Thanks everyone for tuning in to this special edition episode. We'll be back very soon with season six of the episode podcast.

[00:25:59] We've already got many fantastic guests really lined up. So really looking forward to sharing that with you very soon. So thank you again.