S7E7 'Is AI the Enemy of Sustainability?', with Matt Ville from HiYield 🎨
Hi there. Welcome to another episode of the EcoSend podcast. I'm your host James and I am thrilled to bring you another episode of the show. For those of you new to the show, this show is all about people who are in the world of business, making the world a little bit better whether that's through what they're doing from a charitable perspective, from a planet and climate and sustainability perspective or other ways they're inspiring people to take action. I am thrilled today to be joined by Matt Ville who is the founder and CTO of High Yield.
James Gill:Matt's got tons of experience in the tech world and, is running one of, an award winning agency, one of the, great agency's growth index twenty twenty four leaders. So I am very excited today to be joined by Matt. Matt is gonna be talking to us about AI and sustainability, and I know a lot of people have AI on their minds. It's very hard to go through the world right now about bumping into AI, but there's a lot of questions around sustainability and what it means with sustainability. So I'm excited to dive in.
James Gill:Matt, hi, how are you doing? Welcome to the show.
Matt Ville:I'm very good. Thank you, James. Thanks for having me on. Delighted to be here.
James Gill:Amazing. You know, thank you for being here, Matt. We we've had the pleasure of knowing each other, I think, through the Internet for a while. So it's great to be great to be chatting. Matt, tell us a little bit more about what you're up to and what what you're doing with high yield.
Matt Ville:Yeah, so it's always a bit of a rollercoaster in agency land and I don't think the last eighteen months have been any different. So actually, I founded High Yield back in 2019, So pretty much six to nine months in, we had COVID and that was like, wow, what's going on here? Nobody really knows what's going on. Trying to find our way through that. And then obviously, I think coming out of that, we had a really kind of quite high growth period where lots of people were investing the money that they'd been sat on through the COVID period and building lots of really great new stuff.
Matt Ville:And then obviously in the last kind of probably eighteen months, the economy hasn't been the best and I think small businesses have felt a bit of the impact there. So I think navigating the world of agency, or business in general, but I think agency is always slightly up and down by nature. I think that's just been kind of exacerbated with the environment that we're in. And I guess AI is starting to have a bit of an impact in that as well, so it's been something as a technologist that I've taken a keen interest in just because it's fascinating and I look back to kind of my earlier career in tech, you know, back in the very early naughties, and I think some of the stuff that we can achieve now with AI is just mind blowing.
James Gill:So
Matt Ville:I find it really fascinating.
James Gill:Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, no, it's so, so true. Am excited to dig into the world of AI with you and the pros and the cons and all of that. I know also just before we get into it, you also, we had the pleasure of basically you've asked us to contribute to your report you put together on on AI and sustainability, which, we will definitely link to in the show notes, but that came out just was that, I don't know, a few months ago, a year ago? Yeah.
James Gill:I don't know.
Matt Ville:No. It's it's back at the beginning of the year. Yeah. Yeah.
James Gill:Yeah. And so we we'll definitely link to that, but that's, was a fascinating, like, dive into sort of the pros and cons of of AI and that the whole space is moving so quickly, obviously, that even by the time we put this live, probably something will have changed again. But Matt, I know we wanna dive into that, but I would love to hear a bit more about your journey to this point as well because high yield, you're a proud b corp, I know. But in your world, in the world of technology, how how have you gotten to this point? Like, tell tell us a little bit about the story of of how Matt got here.
Matt Ville:Yeah. So it was it's it starts out really with just a a genuine enthusiasm and interest in technology. So since Yeah. Back into kind of like school, back at the end of the 90s, where the web was kind of just taking off as a thing, and out of the back of that I really kind of got very interested in web technologies in particular,
James Gill:I
Matt Ville:guess HTML two maybe back then.
James Gill:HTML two, But it
Matt Ville:who's keeping count? Early days and I kind of had the opportunity to go to college and take the, I guess the traditional path, maybe college and a degree, computer science degree, but I kinda looked at the curriculum and just thought for technology, even back then technology was moving so fast that I kinda wanted to be kind of more relevant, so I went straight into industry,
James Gill:got
Matt Ville:a position in an IT role in a manufacturer actually down in Cornwall, was in their IT team, and I learned all about processes, systems within manufacturing environment. Learned about things like Kanban and Lean, back then in a manufacturing setting. Stayed there for a bit, and then I went to agency side and I joined a digital agency making websites and kind of e commerce shops, and that was kind of my first role as a techie in an agency environment, and I really, I just really love the pace of change. So you could be working on an e commerce site in one sector in the morning and then working on a completely different business proposition in the afternoon, and talking to those customers, understanding the pains of each industry, and it just makes you learn a bit more about business, bit more about how some problems are definitely shared, whereas other problems are specific to industry. And as part of that, I got the really great opportunity to build a web platform for two doctors.
Matt Ville:Oh wow. It was like a clinical management system, so it was basically looking at people with long term health conditions and monitoring them over time. And this was back in 02/2009,
James Gill:you Wow, so it's pretty early on in the world of tech and health tech wasn't a thing.
Matt Ville:No, health tech probably wasn't what it is now. Yeah. And we think the NHS is relatively kind of behind the times now. Back then, it was frightening. So we were doing the first phase of digital transformation, which was really taking very much a paper process and moving it to a digital process.
Matt Ville:So I worked on that, and what we would call these days the MVP, wasn't really an MVP back then, it was just like the first version. Built the
James Gill:first version. Better than MVP never existed.
Matt Ville:So I built that as kind of lead dev at the agency, and the founders went and used that to kind of go in front of a few potential customers. They got their first few customers, and then they got third party investment, and they offered me a job to come on board as their full time lead developer, and I was 21 at the time, and I thought, yeah, like, that's a lot of fun. I was going to start up land.
James Gill:Let's do
Matt Ville:it. Yeah, so that was my first jump into Startupland and when I joined them, of did two and a half years there, kind of worked as mainly their CTO because they're a very small kind of startup team. Again, built out the skills around talking to customers, learning about digital products, learning about customers' pain points and what to build, and it was kind of through my time there that I went to quite a few health tech conferences, for want of a better word, and at one of them I met someone who was just about to build another startup called Step Jockey, which was more, it was in the health space, but more health and well-being.
James Gill:Okay.
Matt Ville:And I felt like I've done clinical health for a bit, and that's great because you can tangibly see the difference and impact you're making for people, which is really important to me. But it's clinical health and it's quite a dry and sometimes uninteresting subject matter. So this felt like it was in the health sphere, so it was still doing good, but it was a bit more light, a bit more energetic, a bit more vibrant maybe. I jumped across the Step Jockey, which was all about incentivizing people in the workplace to be more active in their daily Sure,
James Gill:sure.
Matt Ville:That was a five year start up story from birth to death So yeah, I got involved early days. We got some investment from what is now Innovate UK, but I think it was called something slightly different back then, so this was like 2014, and built the first version, got some really good traction, it was kind of targeted towards bigger kind of companies. So we had Disney, Comcast, Barclays, HSBC, they were all kind of customers. And got some good traction, did our own kind of investment round, raised $6.50 ks as a seed round and then continued to build out the platform, build out the team. Like all startups, bit of a wild ride.
Matt Ville:Yeah, yeah. And then ultimately, kind of really trying to get the business model to work and I think you can use terms like product market fit and stuff like that, maybe we didn't have product market fit, and I think ultimately we couldn't sustain ourselves as a business and we couldn't see a path to kind of break even or growth,
James Gill:so
Matt Ville:ultimately had to take the choice to shut the business down, which was difficult, but what I always say is I think I've learnt so much on that journey. Learnt about all the things that you can do wrong, all the things that you can change if you had the opportunity to do it again. So it was, and met some amazing people along the way, so I think it was a really great experience and as that was coming to an end, I really was trying to figure out what was next for me, so I had bags of experience in tech. I'd kind of moved to be that kind of crossover between tech and product almost, I guess a CPTO I think they're called these days, if you want to put another bracket there.
James Gill:Almost a Star Wars character there.
Matt Ville:So I was trying to figure that out, and I thought, let's combine my previous life in agency with the startup journey I've been on, and that's found a new company, which could be a founder friendly agency, and that's what High Yield was from day one. So it was myself and two other people from the startup I was working in, so they brought my tech team at the startup. I said, let's kind of start this thing together. So we started it and it was very much tech orientated to start with, we were all techies, that was kind of very much staying in our lane, working with founders and startups, helping them build their MVPs or initial phases of their platforms, and it was the three of us for a good six months, and then we started gradually adding people to the team.
James Gill:Got it.
Matt Ville:And now, if we fast forward six and a half years, we're very much a full service digital product studio, got an in house design team, dev teams, product managers, we kind of have all the ingredients to make digital products, and I think your question around doing good and sustainability, that very much has always been something that I've felt the most purpose in my work when I've been engaging in those areas. And I think as we've built the team and the culture at High Yield to the place where we are now, we have a collection of humans who care about what they do, and I think about eighteen months ago now, yeah it was about eighteen months ago, we decided that our brand had served us well for the first three and a half, four years, but actually it was time for a bit of a change and we needed to kind of make the brand really kind of shine a light on who we were now as a team, was different from where we started. A fundamental part of that was bringing in this area around climate conscious digital product studio taking everyone's deep beliefs that we should have sustainability and purpose as the driving factors for what we do and bringing them to the forefront of the brand.
Matt Ville:And that's kind of the high yield that you see today, it's very much that collection of individuals who kind of deeply care about sustainability and working on purpose led projects.
James Gill:Amazing. What a wonderful story to follow then. It's actually fascinating hearing about your career over that time and how much, I know that at least the London tech scene, but the tech scene worldwide and tech are now and how intertwined the web has become with our daily lives is over that career. It's incredible to hear that. And it's really wonderful as well to hear how your own business has kind of changed over time.
James Gill:And I'm curious with the mainly because I know this is something sometimes that I've talked to others about, like the focus on sustainability and climate and
Matt Ville:a lot
James Gill:of these good things, like how much that is driven by you as a team versus from customers? Like, I'm curious, you you were saying at the start how difficult it can be at times where, you know, businesses have less money and there's less spend going on. Like how do you deal with that in a commercial aspect? Like businesses want a website, a mobile app, want a product. Where does sustainability come into that conversation, if at all?
Matt Ville:Yeah. So I I think that this one is fairly nuanced in in how how we would answer this because I think I think the answer to this is evolving and constantly evolving, I think what we're seeing is a generational shift in the workforce, and I think, I don't wanna stereotype demographics, but I think we have kind of age demographics where sustainability probably hasn't been a factor in their daily lives or their business decisions, and I think those people are probably starting to leave the workforce, maybe, And we have kind of this movement of kind of millennials and Gen Z coming through and taking positions within organizations. And I think as age demographics, I feel that those demographics probably have a more conscious attitude towards the climate sustainability. And I think it's probably more a factor in their daily lives, their personal lives, and the choices that they make and the brands that they engage with, the food that they buy, eat, and I think inherently that will flow through to business and those individuals as they kind of assume roles where they're decision making roles, that will start to factor their purchasing decisions in the organisations they're in.
Matt Ville:So I feel that's like the direction of travel. I feel like where we are right now is slightly more complicated, probably maybe by the change of government in The US and maybe the ripping off of the rule book around of climate and sustainability. I think that probably will have a bit of an impact, and I think for us, it's probably, we probably don't have the brand that some organizations have in our space. For example, Whole Grain Digital, they've been doing very sustainable WordPress sites for a long, long time and they have the brand and they have people that go to them because they build sustainable WordPress websites. We probably don't have the brand in that space, so for us we don't necessarily get approached for a sustainable website.
Matt Ville:Sometimes we do, but the majority of the time it's not we're approached for a sustainable website, but what I think happens is we go through the process of identifying what they need, have the conversations with them, and what we always do is say that sustainability is fundamental to how we deliver our websites and products, you're gonna get a sustainable website whether you like it or not because that's just Tough luck. That's just how we work. And it's not an extra that we charge anyone, that's just we do that because that's how we believe that we should create websites or products. And I think when you kind of pitch it in that way, you get people who maybe didn't have that on their radar and then they'll look at your proposition but has sustainability almost baked in and they'll look at others where that isn't part of the proposition. Then I think there's so many great agencies for actually having that sustainability edge does have a positive effect on people opting to go for us versus others.
James Gill:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Appreciate the honesty in that answer as well, Matt. Yeah, it's certainly one way of handling it. I know that often focusing on the sustainability, almost always focusing on the sustainability, whether people care about it or not, like the other benefits of doing that are so innumerate that actually, like you can usually, usually everyone around the table is happy and like not fighting it. I was gonna ask and I know that we want to talk about AI, but it feels like the natural evolution of this conversation would be to just dig in a little bit on what you think of as digital sustainability and how you would sum that up because yeah, it's a movement that obviously we're very passionate about and you mentioned whole grain who have, you know, I know Tom's written a book about digital sustainability and So when you think about that, what does that mean to you, Matt?
Matt Ville:Yeah, I think in terms of how we look at digital sustainability, I think it's probably twofold. And I think, and this came out in a, I did a talk on digital sustainability to a local manufacturing group.
James Gill:Oh, amazing.
Matt Ville:Which was interesting because it wasn't, I think manufacturing has always had sustainability as very much high up in their level of priority, and a lot of that's because it's mandated by government that sustainability's in place. But in terms of digital sustainability, it's not, you're kind of in scope free. It's not mandated in any way. So I think it's a bit of a blind spot for people.
James Gill:Sure.
Matt Ville:When we think about it, we think about as a team, when we're creating a website or an app or a mobile app, what's the carbon that we're creating when we do that? That's from travel, commuting, the equipment that we buy, just your standard kind of assessment for carbon that you're creating in the business. So we do that, and we do our carbon reporting as a whole business, and then we attribute the time that we spend on a project, and from that we kind of infer the amount of carbon we've created on a specific project. So what we do is we offset that carbon as part of the project creation process. So we do that through various different, we do some of it through ecology, but we've also got a partnership with a local rewilding project down in Cornwall Oh amazing.
Matt Ville:We kind of sponsor them to do some really great work in the community. Oh cool. And we make sure that we're offsetting kind of the carbon we've created on the creation of that project. Offsetting obviously isn't, it's not the answer but it feels like it's the right thing to do while we're continually improving how we deliver lower and lower carbon digital products and I think that's kind of the second area, it's what we actually deliver making sure that that has the most efficient carbon footprint, digital carbon footprint that it can have, so where it's hosted, if we're talking about a website, making sure that those pages are as small as they can be, making sure that images are compressed, videos are compressed also, making sure from a coding and scripting point of view that we're reducing the amount of code, not duplicating stuff, and then also all the way up to design and how we're designing the flows on the page, not putting over complex, over designed elements in there, making sure that we're keeping it focused around simple and sustainable practises, but actually that perfectly aligns with high performance and high converting websites and apps.
Matt Ville:So like you say, we're not doing this to necessarily be much better in terms of sustainability. We are in effect, that is a byproduct of it, but what it's also doing is it's creating really good quality products and services. So it's not then the two are not kind of mutually exclusive. They go they go kind of hand in hand.
James Gill:Yeah. Yeah. You're not saying it's gonna be really sustainable, but it's gonna be a rubbish website. You're gonna be embarrassed by it.
Matt Ville:Yeah, completely.
James Gill:No, a %. I hope it goes without saying, but certainly our approach too. And I think so much of the digital sustainability kind of movement is about, in my opinion, it's about just building good products, good software, good websites. And maybe sometimes that takes more work but the result is something that can be proud of I think and that actually has a really positive impact. It's really wonderful to hear your summary there Matt.
James Gill:I I guess maybe that naturally takes us onto the the the topic that we we definitely wanna unpack, which is everyone's best friend, AI. I'm not sure if any listeners have heard of AI, but it's been mentioned in the news and in the tech media once or twice. And I think you posed this question to me, Matt, or you posed this question in our notes of, is AI the enemy of sustainability? Discuss.
Matt Ville:Yes, yeah, what a topic to unpack. Yeah. Yeah, so I think, again, very much multifaceted. I think if you look at kind of the raw fundamentals of AI as a technology, especially generative AI and what we've seen over the last two to three years in terms of ChatGPT and Claude and Gemini, so all of the big players in the AI market. The technology that underpins them is incredibly resource hungry in terms of infrastructure and compute.
Matt Ville:So inherently that has a big impact on the environment. So the data centers that are used to train these models, but also to kind of give access to these models, they've been growing quite wildly over the last few years to support the demand. The fact that you kind of have GPU farms training these models and that they're kind of very high performance, very power hungry GPUs that are used constantly for weeks while they're training these models, I don't think you can really get around the fact that AI as a technology isn't sustainable in terms of its energy consumption, really. The data centers, most of the energy is used in cooling because these kind of GPUs and other kind of compute power, because it uses a lot of electricity, it generates a lot of heat, So it's the cooling and then kind of the water and resources around these data center that sometimes gets used without any regard for kind of the local environment and community. So yeah, AI does have a really big impact on sustainability.
Matt Ville:So I think that was kind of, when we set this out as is AI the enemy of sustainability, that was something that we were posing as kind of a question to the community as much as kind of trying to answer it ourselves. And the feedback that we got when we did the report on this was for 62% of the people or the businesses that we kind of surveyed on this, their biggest kind of reason for reading and contributing was to figure out kind of around AI and its digital carbon footprint. So I think people have already clocked on to the fact that AI, and certainly people in our industry, but I think probably slightly wider because AI has become so mainstream, that as a technology, yeah, it's not the most sustainable, which I think is a challenge because as we want to keep pace with the industry and we want to kind of use all of the great services and abilities out there, you just have to be a bit more diligent about how you're using them, how you're engaging with them. And I think there's also some kind of responsibility on the creators of these large models to make sure they can reduce the dependency on large volumes of compute to train the models, for example.
Matt Ville:And I think that's why there was a lot of fanfare around DeepSeek when they kind of released their R1 model because it sounded from first, kind of first, as it entered the news market, that they'd actually managed to train this model in much, much less time than ChatGPT or OpenAI have trained their models. So it felt like that was, one, kind of interesting because obviously the markets, money markets caught onto that as well and felt, Oh, actually maybe we don't need all of these GPUs anymore because these guys have just trained their model on a lot less. It was quite good for sustainability. Weather, think once you dig into the facts, I think there were a few smoke and mirrors there about actually how efficient that model was, but I think what it will have done is it will have, it would have been very much noticed by the big AI, generative AI players like OpenAI, and they'd have gone, Well, actually, we can train our models faster. So again, I think we're in the position where we've got a number of main platforms when it comes to generative AI, and they will all start copying tactics from each other, and hopefully some of these tactics like that one will end up with more sustainable models at their base, but I think there's still a lot of questions around kind of that sustainability of training definitely and the efficacy of that as well.
Matt Ville:And what we're starting to see is a few more alternatives out there, like GreenPT is one that has kind of come up my radar a few times recently. So they're very much taking a model and hosting it somewhere where it's very sustainable and looking at their supply chains and making sure they're all very sustainable. So again, the training of that model probably hasn't been particularly sustainable because that's still incredibly power hungry, but at least the inference, the usage of that model is being done in a more sustainable way. So I think, again, as AI evolves and matures, I think we'll see more sustainable approaches to it.
James Gill:Absolutely. I'll give a little plug for another episode of this podcast because we actually have the founder of Green PT on the show, think either that will have come out or it's coming out very soon. That is an interesting point though, Matt, I think, in that for the future, how do consumers and businesses treat AI? Should we be treating it as this more precious thing that we only use occasionally or should we be seeking out the more sustainable focused, products and services that exist in the space? Probably a bit of both.
James Gill:It may be AI will actually help us come up with many bigger answers to sustainable challenges in the future. All manner of possible outcomes in the future. Do you have any any views on that yourself, Matt?
Matt Ville:Yeah. I I I think it's it feels like it's a little bit of all three of those things, really. Think there's definitely some fair usage and responsible usage of AI, and I think that's probably the responsibility of individuals, but also where it's used in an organisation setting, kind of the responsibility of the organisation to set some principles around when and when not to use AI, like an AI cheat sheet or something like that to go, don't use it for some very basic kind of text generation, don't use it for a one paragraph email for example, make sure you're using it where you're actually gonna get some value for the carbon that's created in doing that. So I think fair usage is definitely something that needs to be considered. I think having, obviously at the moment we've got some very predominant forces in the industry, but it's hard to look beyond in terms of OpenAI's ChatGPT and Claude and Gemini, Perplexity.
Matt Ville:There's five or six really big ones that dominate. But what I think we will see is more brands like Green PT, but are actually taking the technical structures of a large language model and packaging it up in a more sustainable way. And I think that really translates to us, again, as individuals and organisations being conscious about where we buy our goods and thinking more about kind of the whole supply chain. And obviously that I think is very relevant with EcoZen, for example, in terms of there's lots of email marketing platforms out there, but actually if you look at your supply chain and as we do as an organization who use services like that, then you have to start considering where can we improve our carbon footprint and as a consequence, how do we engage differently with suppliers and what suppliers do we engage with to kind of make that a reality, I guess. So that's definitely kind of those two areas.
Matt Ville:And then the third area around how, I guess the positive, net positive in terms of the change you're making. So if you can look at like a very legacy technical process, that maybe you've had within your business for a long time, and maybe it's an overnight process that runs all night. Let's not forget that all of these, every bit of technology still needs compute. Most people's systems are in the cloud these days, so they're sat in a big data center somewhere that's consuming a lot of power. So AI is not new here in terms of how it's using energy.
Matt Ville:It's using a lot more energy than some of the other technologies, but these technologies still use energy. So if you're looking at maybe that legacy, long running process, but it's taking eight hours a night to run because it's very legacy code, very procedural in how it's doing it, and you can replace that with something like a set of AI agents that maybe run ad hoc when they need to run and they only take ten minutes to run the same process, then actually the net result of that is going to be a positive one in terms of how you've deployed AI in a more efficient, much more efficient way over your current business processes. So I think that, again, it's spotting the use case and really doubling down on how you can drive efficiencies to get the best and the most sustainability out of AI.
James Gill:Yeah, it's really, really great to hear your take on it, Matt. Like, as always with these topics, it's never good or bad. Is nuance abounds in the discussion and very good to hear your thoughtful take on it. For what it's worth, think one of the things I think has been positive for the digital sustainability movement is I do think that AI has actually brought digital sustainability as a concept into the minds of a lot more people as well. I think for a long time, sustainability was like, okay, it's in the background somewhere.
James Gill:But now when I talk to family members and friends that are not in our world at all, are like, Oh yeah, AI uses a lot of energy. AI is quite a big consumer of data centers and I think that has broken through into mainstream awareness to an extent. And I think as with all of these movements it's very hard to do anything without first awareness and so I think if we're starting to get that awareness there and that understanding then I'm hopeful that that will lead to change and consumers being more aware, maybe more demand from consumers leads to more of these providers being more conscious themselves, fingers crossed. Yeah,
Matt Ville:definitely. I wholeheartedly agree with that. It's definitely given much more visibility to the technology. And like I said, all of these technologies have a digital carbon footprint. AI exacerbates that, but at least it has made it a more mainstream topic of conversation.
James Gill:Yeah, yeah. Matt, I know we could easily spend the rest of the day talking about this, but I'm conscious we're already at time. Was there any passing thoughts you wanted to share? Anywhere you wanted people to go to to learn more to check out?
Matt Ville:Yes. Definitely check out the, is AI the enemy of sustainability report that we put together. Yeah. So you can find links to that on the High Yield website, highyield.co.uk, but I know you're gonna include a link to it in the show notes as well.
James Gill:Yeah, yeah.
Matt Ville:So there was, we had some really great contributions from the digital sustainability community there. James, thank you again for your contribution to that report as well.
James Gill:Credit to everyone but me, please. So
Matt Ville:there's some real great voices in the community there and some really great insights, so that's definitely one to look at. And I think for me, maybe the parting thought is around the direction of travel for AI and where it will go over the next, I keep on saying like two to five years and then something seismic happens and I go, maybe I should be thinking six to eighteen instead. Or maybe I should just be thinking three to six, I'm not But I think what we will find in the future of AI is a sense of maturity, like any technology has this kind of initial hype phase where it's used and there's a lot of hype around it. There's a lot of potential and possibility that kind of gets over exaggerated and it becomes kind of the magic bullet to everything. A bit like our friends in the Web3 community probably saw maybe five years ago.
Matt Ville:I think AI fundamentally has a bigger part to play than kind of web free technologies because I think there's actual tangible use cases on the daily. But what we will see is it mature, I think, and we will see less usage of it in our products and services where we've got AI, I call it kind of AI on the side. So you have your existing product, and then you have an AI agent sat on the side that interacts with the product and does things for you, so that's kind of the phase we're in at the moment, which is driven by hype and demand, One product's going, our competitor's got an AI agent, we need an AI agent that sits on the side of the screen. But as we reach maturity, I think AI will be baked more into the fundamental workings of our products. And I think that's the parting note for me is as a kind of community, a digital community, really think and try and understand what the problems we're trying to solve with AI as a technology are rather than let's just stick an AI assistant on the side of our app.
Matt Ville:And I think if we start doing that, we'll have more responsible use of AI, we'll have less carbon footprint, but ultimately we'll have better experiences for our customers because it will be a more thoughtful way to use AI as part of the product.
James Gill:I love that. That is a great way to wrap. Thank you, Matt. I think there's so much in today's episode. I'm sure a lot of people are gonna be taking away to think about, did we need to slap AI on everything in our product?
James Gill:You, Matt. It's been wonderful to discuss. Yeah, I will make sure we link to the report in the notes and do check out the high yield website as well. I think it's just a beautiful example of a really well crafted website and, yeah. And and thank you again, Matt, for joining us today.
James Gill:It's been a real pleasure speaking with you.
Matt Ville:Thank you, James. It's been it's been wonderful. Thank you for inviting me.
James Gill:Amazing. Thank you, Matt.
Matt Ville:Cheers.
James Gill:Thank you everyone for for listening today. If you've enjoyed the episode, you know what to do. Please do. Give it a like. Give it five stars.
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