The EcoSend Podcast

Season 2 Wrap-Up Episode
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[00:00:00] Chris (EcoSend):

[00:00:53] Welcome to a special edition episode of the EcoSend podcast today. My name is Chris. I'm the Customer Success Lead here at EcoSend. And today I'm delighted to host our CEO James, who is back in the hot seat again. To give us his thoughts on a special wrap up episode as we bring series two of the podcast to a close.

[00:01:14] If you happen to be tuning in for the first time, the EcoSend Podcast is a platform where we interview founders, marketers and leaders, all working in sustainability, who are creating more climate and community focused businesses. And we're also using this podcast ourselves to document our own journey here at EcoSend as we take our next steps to becoming a more climate focused business ourselves.

[00:01:36] Learning what we should and shouldn't be doing in order to continue to move along in the right direction. I've had a fantastic variety of guests this season. We've had climate vc business owners, ethical marketers, and even a data scientist for the Danish National Police, which is not every day you get to say that.

[00:01:54] So as we now look back over the last 10 episodes of season two, really excited for today's episode. I think it'll be a great opportunity for us to pick James's brains on some of the lessons he's taken from our latest round of podcast guests. So, James, hello from the other side. Welcome to the EcoSend podcast.

[00:02:14] James Gill: Hi, Chris. Thank you so much. What a great intro. And it's lovely to be on this side of the of the podcast studio this time. So yeah, great to be here. So excited to dig into this.

[00:02:25] Chris (EcoSend): Happy to have you. Happy to have you. So to kick things off, obviously we wrapped up series one of the podcast around the end of 2022, and here we are now already at the midway point of 2023.

[00:02:38] We'd really like to know what's, what feels different and what feels the same to you. Wrapping up series two now compared to back when we were wrapping up our first season.

[00:02:49] James Gill: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, First of all, it's, it's just been an incredible honor doing the, the EcoSend podcast. I, I remember back when we started on the journey of doing EcoSend itself, and, and a lot of the reason for, for doing the podcast was for ourselves to learn more.

[00:03:07] And, you know, for those of listening who may not be too familiar with our story. We'd been running GoSquared for, for many, many years. So we know a lot about software as a business, but where we didn't know much and where we knew we had lots of blind spots was around sustainability and climate and, and we were very worried at the start of not knowing anything.

[00:03:29] So we started talking to people and those conversations evolved into. The podcast and, and here we are after series two. So it's, it's flown by honestly the since doing, doing that first, first episode right through to the end of the second series, and it, it feels like in series two, the, well, it just feels like we've been having more and more conversations that build on top of each other and I'm finding that I now have a much better understanding of.

[00:04:03] Of things than where I was six months ago or, or 12 months ago for sure. But I think in terms of some of the stuff that's specifically changed since the end of series one I would say that. There, there definitely does seem to be this growing awareness of, of sort of the concept of digital sustainability.

[00:04:23] We, it still feels in the scheme of things, we are quite early days still in people paying attention. But in this series we certainly spoke to several people, whether that was sort of Chris, Chris Butterworth talking about the whole concept of digital sustainability and, and really focusing a lot of his own career on, on, on addressing that and drawing a attention to that through to you know, we had Kasper from, as you said, the, from the Danish Police Force, but talking about the carbon footprint and environmental impacts of the stuff we're doing with, with AI.

[00:04:57] I think that that awareness of digital sustainability initially was something we didn't even really know much about. And now we're, we are seeing it come up more and more and more and more companies and individuals doing things about it, whether that's building businesses to address things there, writing about it and sharing more information about it.

[00:05:18] So I think that's been a big piece. I think like sort of related to that in a big way has also been the growth of AI and, and six months ago, I can't really remember quite where we were at, but mm-hmm. I dunno if ChatGPT was even on the scene yet, but like, got a thing. Yeah. Yeah obviously everyone had talked about AI a little bit and, and we were talking about machine learning AI, but I, I think that that whole area of ChatGPT and AI based chat bots and generative AI has really exploded in in the last six months. And, and any anyone even far removed from tech has probably come across that or even used one of these tools. And, and I think that's been an interesting one on so many levels, partly as, as mentioned around what is the carbon footprint, climate cost of that, where we're needing all of this additional computing resource and, and energy.

[00:06:15] But also like, what are the positives there in terms of is that is this gonna be some magical technology that gives us maybe not all the answers, but some of the answers, or is it gonna destroy us all? And so like there's these various aspects there with, with AI that I think has come up as a, a partially related conversation.

[00:06:35] But yeah, overall I think it's just been an incredible series. For seeing a very wide range of people that are, if, if not directly involved, really fascinated and interested in digital sustainability, the climate, and how tech can impact that. So, it's been a thoroughly enjoyable series to, to be interviewing some amazing people for.

[00:07:04] Chris (EcoSend): I think it's, it's quite amazing how quickly progress has been made or how quickly things have changed just within running one series of a podcast, as you said. ChatGPT not really maybe as existing in kind of common awareness when we wrapped up series one and now being very much a thing which is seemingly somewhat omnipresent in everyone's lives.

[00:07:25] And taking into account all the infrastructure around digital marketing, we hadn't really thought of, or at least I think, you know, I hadn't thought of around, I think it was Kasper and, and maybe Kate as well, Kate Clark, talking about these huge data centers that are powering things like, and even just the amount of water that is needed to cool the servers and how that correlates with drought affected areas. You can start seeing how how deep the rabbit hole goes, I suppose. Yeah. As we start to get into it.

[00:07:55] James Gill: Yeah, absolutely.

[00:07:57] Chris (EcoSend): Obviously in tandem with the podcast, you've experienced another six months at the helm, running, running EcoSend; spearheading EcoSend into the sustainability space.

[00:08:07] Have you had any particular epiphanies, any breakthroughs or challenges even that you think you, you'd like to, to share with us?

[00:08:15] James Gill: Yeah, I I think there's so much that one learns. And as a whole team, we have been learning over, over the course of this journey from starting EcoSend. And I think there's a lot of things that I think have applied even before this, but there's, I guess one overarching theme is that it always takes longer than one thinks to change things.

[00:08:42] Whether that's changing stuff that we directly control or changing people's understanding of things or changing people's behavior. I think myself, I'm always someone who wants to get something done today. We've always had this tagline phrase at GoSquared, which has been act now, not tomorrow.

[00:09:02] And trying to make change happen and, and get things out the door. And I think, I think with, with EcoSend, it was something that we, we very quickly got a first version up and, and out. But I, I think what's been interesting is just seeing how, how long it can take to, to fully change our ourselves and, and fully appreciate what we're doing with regards to the environment.

[00:09:28] And, and changing, you know, we're working on something that involves businesses changing their behavior around email sending, which is a very critical part of most people's businesses. And so we're finding a lot of success there. But it, it's one of those things that I think we've learned a lot over the last six months in particular around how to make that easier for customers and, and reduce the friction and the perceived friction there. Which has been a big, big part of it. So making it easier for people to make a more climate conscious choice. I I, I think it, it, it always, yeah, we've, we've spent a lot of time figuring that out and working on that and making that better. But I think Kind of related to that though, it, it has reinforced my sense that you cannot figure everything out before you start.

[00:10:19] That if you wait around to get permission to have all the answers, you'll not ever get off the ground with anything. And Really over the journey with EcoSend. It has come from trying things out starting, and not just talking internally, but putting ourselves out there and really entering a space that initially we knew very little about.

[00:10:46] And I think, I think that has just really, yeah, really reinforced that sense that for anyone, anyone out there starting or trying to get something off the grounds, trying to do something a bit different. The likelihood is it's gonna feel weird. It's gonna feel like you're doing stuff too early. You, it's likely that you're not ready, you're not feeling ready.

[00:11:08] But if you wait till you're fully ready, you've waited too long and you may have even missed the opportunity. So I think, I think there's been a, a bunch of things we've learned there. And I, I think, I think also, I mean, the last point on this I would just say is that, for us, I think we, we, we are building an email marketing platform and we are deeply, deeply passionate about the climate and how to make sure that even though people are not necessarily, the majority of people are still not thinking about digital sustainability.

[00:11:46] Even the people that care about digital sustainability and, and the climate, even if they want to make a change, like you have to still make sure that you're delivering on their needs for whatever tool they're, they're using. And so with EcoSend, it's been critical that we don't ask customers to make too many sacrifices by coming on board.

[00:12:11] And I think that's a lesson like what, whatever product you're making or service you're offering, If you're doing something altruistic, that may be enough to get people excited or interested to start those conversations. But at the end of the day, you have to have to deliver a great service.

[00:12:29] And, and I think for us, that's just really been reinforced over the last six months where we're having some amazing conversations. And fortunately we're building a product that really stands up and, and holds its own when compared to other, other incredibly established and perhaps sometimes old school email marketing tools.

[00:12:51] But that, that we can bring customers on board that yeah, they're making a better choice from a climate perspective, but they're also making a better choice for their email marketing efforts themselves. And that's the goal. And really what we want to see 100% of the time, every time we win a customer, which is.

[00:13:11] I'm doing something better for the planet. I'm doing something better for my business and something better for my customers and my audience. And and I think that sort of win-win win is, is what we're trying to get to. We don't want people to have to sacrifice anything. And we do believe we can, we can achieve that going forward, which is, which is really exciting.

[00:13:32] Chris (EcoSend): Yeah, absolutely. I think I think I remember it was Sanjay on the first season was talking about how this has to be win, win, win, you know, the the end user has to benefit from, from the product and the environment also has to benefit. It can't be that there's compromise on, on quality or on service.

[00:13:48] At any point it has to be that everyone is winning in order for this to work. On the point you made about putting ourselves more out there in the sustainability space. I think a lot of our guests this season have really, and last season as well, have spoken about that difficulty in walking the thin line between those two pitfalls in this space of, of, on the one hand Greenwashing and the other hand Greenhushing.

[00:14:12] Just for quick definitions just in case; GreenWahing the sort of general definition of that is, 'Advertising marketing spin in which sort of green marketing tactics are used somewhat deceptively to persuade the public that the certain organization's products or policies are environmentally friendly, when in reality that may not be the case.'

[00:14:34] And then on the other hand, we have Greenhushing which is a, a newer concept and it's, it's when companies, I think particularly smaller companies, deliberately choose not to communicate their sustainability efforts. And that tends to be out of a fear of being criticized publicly. Or maybe they have a lack of dedicated resource and data to back up their, their initiatives or their claims, which is obviously unfortunate to have many companies with good intentions running good initiatives, but not really spreading the word.

[00:15:04] And that word doesn't need to be spread in order, kind of for maximum impact and change. So, As CEO of EcoSend, have you navigated that fine line over the past six months, or how do you envisage navigating that in, you know, in the years to come?

[00:15:18] James Gill: Yeah, absolutely. This is such a, such an interesting topic to talk about, especially from our own journey and a lot of our listeners are in marketing roles of some sort or leaders themselves, of trying to navigate that very fine line. And this, you know, going back to the start of EcoSend was a huge reason why we had a lot of anxiety around putting EcoSend out there into the world in the first place because that, that fear that you're making, making the, making people think something that might not be true .Or that fear that you haven't done enough research and that you are unintentionally misleading people in some way can often overwhelm the benefits of doing good and, and paralyze people and companies from saying anything here. And I think anyone who knows about this whole space is that it's always better to talk and, and surface things and talk about the climate than to not, because you don't learn much by not, by not speaking and putting your voice out there.

[00:16:24] I think I, I think for us, there's a few things on, on this. I guess I, for Greenwashing, Greenwashing is something we have been paranoid about from the start that we don't want. It's just not in our DNA to, to, to tell people stuff that isn't true and to try to mislead people intentionally like that, those, that's just not what we've ever done as a business.

[00:16:52] We've always tried to build a business that is based on reality, or based on honesty, based on trust with our customers and not even our customers alone. Just like our audience, our team, everything. And that runs deep through the whole, like DNA of the company. And so with greenwashing, like, I think it's just so important that you, you don't knowingly, I mean, if I was trying to offer, I don't know, do I wanna offer advice to anyone, but like, If you are knowingly saying stuff that's incorrect, then like that there's a more fundamental, it goes probably beyond just greenwashing, but goes into other aspects of the business as well, where like, why are you saying something knowingly that is disingenuous.

[00:17:40] But I think in terms of the overcoming the Greenhushing side of things, it's, it's sort of like knowing or not knowing whether you are you are being misleading. And I think there's so many nuances to how you can and should speak about climate related services and offerings and, and what value you add and what, what value you're trying to pitch.

[00:18:05] And I think in the early days, like you're just, you're not gonna know everything. And even for the people that know a lot, like they still don't know everything. Like out of all the people I've spoken to on the podcast people have different ways of talking about what they're doing. They have different customer bases.

[00:18:24] They are living in different markets, which and, and territories where there are different approaches to stating things.

[00:18:31] Like in the UK we have the Green Claims Code, which is quite a helpful resource from from the government around how to actually speak about and, and market products with a climate related angle, but that's in the UK. Whereas if you're in the US or if you're in other parts of the world, you may have very different rules and laws and legislation there, or recommendations. But I, I would say that maybe I don't think it's counter to Greenwashing at all actually. You've gotta start somewhere, and if you're doing the right thing and you genuinely believe you're doing the right thing and you're doing that from the right place.

[00:19:13] Say, talk about it, whether that's, talk about it on a podcast, on a YouTube video, write about it on a blog, tweet about it, whatever, and very quickly you'll start to learn because you'll start finding that that might resonate with people or it might rub some people the wrong way and engage in those conversations and correct and iterate as you go.

[00:19:37] It's, again, it kind of comes back to the stuff we were talking about on the previous sort of question and, and conversation around. If you try to figure it all out before you start, then you'll basically put it off and put it off and never start. So I think for us, like we're, we've made mistakes and we will continue to make mistakes, I'm sure of it.

[00:19:55] But if we're not making mistakes, then we're not learning and we're not evolving and we're not getting our messaging out and the best way possible. And so when we make mistakes, we listen and we understand, we educate ourselves and we correct them and we keep on. Doing that process iteratively. And every time we do it, we learn more and we learn more and we level up.

[00:20:13] And hopefully over time we make fewer mistakes. And we eradicate the chance of us being misleading by, by any means, and make a clearer message more valuable and helpful message and, and we can then pass that knowledge on to other people too. So I, I think that would be my summary of those two very opposing terms.

[00:20:34] And and yeah, of course, like part of this journey has been trying to share what we're learning. So for anyone who's listening and, and wants to talk to us more about that, like we are, we're always keen to, to hear from, from customers, from our audience, what we can be doing better, but also happy to share what we've learned as well.

[00:20:54] So don't be afraid to reach out.

[00:20:56] Chris (EcoSend): I think it's been fascinating the more we delve into this, how much of a community there actually is around there, around these topics and how many people out there are, you know, trying to act as change makers and having these conversations and providing that kind of forum for it.

[00:21:13] I think, you know, LinkedIn's probably been a great place, for example, for these conversations and yeah, and that, that is one of the most important things about avoiding Greenhushing is in order to have these conversations out in the open because. We are all learning. As you say, no one has the, the perfect plan and the perfect answer for sustainability or the climate.

[00:21:31] But the more we have these conversations, the step-by-step, I think the closer we, we get there. And obviously, we've been learning a ton from our guests about embedding sustainability into, into our business mission, into EcoSend. But have you personally found that having this increased general awareness or being more mindful of the environment and climate has started, maybe perhaps blending into your personal life in any ways too?

[00:21:58] James Gill: Yeah, absolutely. Chris, I think again, it, it comes back to that being, being authentic and being, being as genuine as, as one can try to be, and. And I, I don't think it would quite be right if I, if I was leading, leading us on, on what we're doing with EcoSend and exclusively drove a diesel guzzling 4x4, around the center of London, and I don't know, came home and set, set a big bonfire going every, every evening.

[00:22:33] But I think about this a lot because I think it also relates to the sort of the point of win-win, win and, and not necessarily sacrificing too much, but I, I tend to try to be efficient with with most things in li in life. And there are a few talks that whether conversations from the podcast, but also other conversations and, and discussions I've had on this.

[00:22:59] I think there's a few things that have really influenced me. One is my approach to eating meat and being very conscious of how different food can have an influence on, well, both on health and on the environment and on the climate. And I certainly, you know, there, there was a, a period of time where I, I was vegetarian.

[00:23:21] I went vegetarian. I'm not vegetarian at the moment, which is something I still feel quite conflicted about, but I, I have definitely taken big steps towards reducing consumption of meat and specifically red meat in particular and, and how much that can have an impact. I think also in terms of food consumption, where food comes from and, and being increasingly aware of, 'oh, I love this vegetable or this fruit, but I'm eating it totally out of season and there's no chance in hell it would be growing in the UK at this time of the year'.

[00:23:57] Paying a lot more attention to where, where that food comes from and, and you know, where it might have been shipped to. And then thinking about the supply chain of how the heck that gets from where it fell off of a tree to my plate is a, is a really big thing. I think also in terms of travel, I increasingly just love being in the UK and I do every now and again have to travel abroad and sometimes that necessitates taking a flight. And I, we've really been trying to make sure that always we, we offset those, those flights, unfortunately as much as I would love to live to, I, I dunno if you heard the Lucie episode, but her approach to slow travel and I long for a day where I can, or a week where I could take that time off and be on a yacht and just sailing by myself across an ocean without a clear deadline in mind.

[00:24:55] And and if I arrive on Friday, or if I arrive on Sunday It's dependent on the weather. I think that sounds like a, a wonderful, a wonderful experience. But I, I think sometimes at the moment, plane travel has been necessary and I, I am much more mindful of that. We've been offsetting that. I definitely try to take the train as much as I possibly can within the UK.

[00:25:17] And I think also within the home; so one of the talks I heard a while ago was from a wonderful lady who was starting an initiative to really cut down plastic and really trying to approach at the business level and the government level to try to influence the reduction of, of plastic being used in just used full stop, but especially in the production of new, new products.

[00:25:44] And I think some of the things she said really have stuck with me deeply, which is we created this material; mankind created a material that lasts forever, basically, which is plastic. And yet we don't treat it like it is this material that is as valuable as gold. We treat it like it's free.

[00:26:03] And, and I think ever since hearing some of that, I, I really felt that, gosh, plastic is absolutely everywhere in our lives like the. You know, the, the mouse I use with my computer, the dinner I pick up at the shop and you, you cannot get away from plastic. And and, and when you look at the world and how much plastic we have around us, it's, it's made me quite angry actually at, at how complacent we are as a, as a species that we are letting this, this material just... almost suffocate us in a way. And that kind of change will not happen overnight, but over many, many years and lots and lots of hard work from lots of dedicated people. I do think we can get to a world which is using materials much more consciously being much more mindful of the products we buy and use for merely seconds before they're thrown away.

[00:27:06] I think that awareness will only only grow over the coming months and years. And it's certainly been something that I, I care a lot about and would like to continue to change. And, and it starts with me, like, if I can't make these changes, then how can I expect others to, to make those changes?

[00:27:25] But yeah, I don't know, maybe I'm a bit obsessive, but I, I am angry at the our approach and our complacency with the materials around us and desperate that we, we make changes there collectively to, to make things better cuz it'll be a better world when we do.

[00:27:42] Chris (EcoSend): Yeah. I think everyone loved Lucy's episode and the concept of slow travel.

[00:27:47] It's like you listen to that episode and it's just automatic wanderlust and you wanna go... the idea of being on a boat with no internet and literally arriving when the wind decides it's gonna take you there, just, just sounds wonderful to me. So, yeah. James, we're, we're rushing through time. But I think. One, one thing I really want to talk about is in, in the last wrap up episode we had, you spoke about the difficulty there is in making people care enough to take action around climate issues, which I think is something that I think almost everyone in working or running a business or as a marketer in the sustainability space comes up against.

[00:28:27] Since then, have you had any lessons or thoughts to share on how you've been tackling this in, in the past six months?

[00:28:34] James Gill: Yeah, that's, it's a great, a great point Chris. This is definitely one of the toughest things I think that we find and, and that people, almost everyone we speak to who is in the world of sustainability and climate finds that people care.

[00:28:51] But how to get them to actually make those changes, and whether they're big or small, even small changes can be difficult. I, I think for us it's. About that win win win kind of angle again, of, of making sure people don't have to make a compromise. And once, once that fear is overcome, then reducing the friction as much as possible to, to migrate someone from a legacy tool or an older tool and, and migrate to a better way of doing email with us. So, so there's a lot of stuff there which is similar to any kind of change that one would make in a business like that, that increasing the motivation and reducing the friction it is, is a really key thing.

[00:29:38] But I think In, in terms of increasing the motivation. There's a lot that we've certainly been learning as well about making sure people can visualize and, and connect with what we're saying. Like if we talk about hundreds of kilograms of co2, that's a very. It's very hard to imagine concept, but if, if you start relating those to being equivalent to flights around the world or the, the comparison between industries and, and how much digital sustainability can be related to, say, the waste industry or the airline industry.

[00:30:16] These, these much more tangible things. And I, I think that really helps people connect with. What's going on in a world where things are so detached and disconnected? I think also reminding people that there's actually a lot going on beyond carbon footprint as a measurement. We find carbon footprint is very hard to measure full stop anyway. But actually a lot of decisions that affect carbon emissions also affect many, many other aspects, and people often care or can contextualize and understand those other ramifications too. So like when we were talking with Kasper about the impact of data centers, it's not just energy consumption. It's not just carbon emissions as a result of that. But it's the water consumption, which is leading to drought, which is leading to data centers being in different locations and the economic impact of that and socioeconomic impact of that. There's all of these, not to mention biodiversity and ecosystems that are being affected by all of these things.

[00:31:26] So I, I think there's a lot of aspects there that people, just mere mortals that are not in the world of sustainability. People care about a lot of those things also. And, and connecting things to those is, is a big part. And telling good stories that engage people around those is a really big deal.

[00:31:45] And then there's also aspects where like finding ways people can make one change. And if you can get them over that hurdle, then it's one change and one bit of friction, but the, once that change has been made, it's then very easy for the good stuff to follow. And we found that with well, we find that with EcoSend itself, but also with things like signing up to Tyve for payroll giving, which was something we did as a business earlier, earlier in the year.

[00:32:15] And you know, it's one thing where people have to switch and opt in, but then afterwards people are opted in, and, and they are doing that good on an ongoing basis without any further friction, which I think is, is a really exciting and interesting thing. But yeah. Change is hard and it take, takes time, but I, I think we're, we're continuously learning how to make it easier for people and yeah, people, people love a good, a good story and a good visual to help them make that that leap.

[00:32:46] Chris (EcoSend): Amazing. James, time has shot past, but I think I'd love to get any, any final comments from yourself, any, any thoughts about the next six months to come, the future and as well where, where can people find you? Where can people keep up with what you're doing or what, what we're doing here at EcoSend?

[00:33:04] James Gill: Yeah, absolutely. I, I think the the next six months, I'm sure it will fly by and before we know we'll be talking about Christmas and and New Year's and all this. But I, I think it's gonna be a very exciting time because we're building and building on the, the compounding effect of what we're doing here.

[00:33:20] Like a growing community of people that are increasingly aware of digital sustainability. Every customer using EcoSend is, is helpful for sharing the word about this more and more. The podcast I think is gonna keep growing and growing, and we've already lined up some amazing people for series three, which I'm so excited about.

[00:33:42] So Oh yeah, spoiler alert. We've got another series coming. And, and I, I just think that the, the growing awareness, and I, I want, I'm, I'm hoping that's gonna be not just this linear growth, but an exponential growth of people paying attention to this as, as Tech and Digital and AI becomes more and more a part of our core and integral part of our lives we've gotta care about the knock on effects of that for the climate and the planet too.

[00:34:10] So I think that's gonna be exciting and I think the opportunity for some of that Tech, and especially things like AI to help us. With addressing some of that, I think I, I remain very optimistic about. So I think it's gonna be an exciting six months and I look forward to checking back in once we get there.

[00:34:29] And in terms of finding us; EcoSend.io is is the site. We're all there. You can reach out to us there. I'm on various places, but probably somehow that's another thing that's changed since we I think the start of the year, Twitter and Elon Musk taking that over. But we won't go on on that tangent.

[00:34:50] But I'm on, I'm on Twitter, @jamesjgill. And that's probably a good place to find me or LinkedIn as well. So, yeah.

[00:34:58] Chris (EcoSend): Don't, don't quite have you on TikTok yet do we, James? We're still, we're still waiting for that one.

[00:35:02] James Gill: Maybe in six months time, Chris, that could happen. We will see.

[00:35:08] Chris (EcoSend): Thank you. Thank you very much, James.

[00:35:09] It's been an absolute pleasure. Pleasure having you on the podcast. Thank you to everyone for listening. Please do, please do. Like, subscribe, share; it really helps us get the word out there. Each episode podcast is growing and we're really excited to see you again for series three. So thank you again very much, James for, for joining me.

[00:35:28] James Gill: Thank you, Chris. And I should just give one more shout out, which is to Chris because behind the scenes every episode has been edited and produced by Chris and he does a stellar job. So thank you Chris, and we'll catch you next time.

[00:35:41] Chris (EcoSend): Bye bye!

[00:35:41]